Need Judge Change - Page 1

I hear alot of complaining and remarks about how pathic some of the showline/schutzhund dogs are. My question is why not get new judges? Seems most top breeders like the current decisions judges make? Why don't the top GSD breeders demand change to improve the breed?

"Why don't the top GSD breeders demand change to improve the breed?" ***************************************************** Because we don't live in Germany and have no choice in who becomes a licensed SV judge or körmeister. Unless they have their licenses suspended, most SV judges continue to judge until they reach mandatory retirement age. However, let me qualify my comment by saying that, although I have been in the breed since 1964 and have been reasonably successful, I surely haven't enough clout and haven't bred enough litters to classify myself as "top". If the dogs are pathetic, politics may always have taken its toll. However, given that the majority of show (as well as working line) pups are sold to "pet" homes, many breeders may have little financial incentive to breed dogs with correct working drives. They don't want to have to offer replacements to the general pet-buying owners who are may be unable to appreciate, cope with, live with, or train a high-drive dog. Perhaps breeders should curtail their breeding programs until they have a waiting list of truly qualified buyers??

Let me say I don't expect this to happen anywhere in the world. I have been reading so many posts about the GSD quality getting worse and worse. Name of the game is winning and why does the GSD world(Germany and USA) not demand the criteria the judges use. Someone is setting the agenda? Looks to me if the breeders started challenging and refusing to breed just for looks we could make a change. Working towards that perfect balance. Just a thought and would like to hear feedback staying on the subject.

To answer your question I do believe the market is over saturated and you are exactly correct in that the market for pets has dictated the breeding. They like to to be proud of their pretty show dog the titles in pedigree. Most don't even realize the actual quality they have or don't have.

The ones at the top are the ones making the rules, why would they want to change now?

Exactly what I am getting at. The top GSD are the ones setting the agenda! You figured that out quick! lol

Kind of ironic that breeders want to win so bad that they conform to whatever the judges say even at the expense of the GSD's they own. "Yea so my VA male will tuck his tail and run from a real threat but he sure is pretty!"

You may have read my statements, as well as those of others concerning the role of the S.V.'s judges. They KNOW what is the F.C.I. standard as far as conformation is concerned, yet few top dogs adhere to this standard. The judges are certainly not stupid and/or untrained, for they must serve a long apprenticeship with an established S.V. judge to obtain their license. The apprentice judges must eventually render the same judgement as the master judges to who they are apprenticed. Now, this is for conformation, and I am sure the same methods apply for judging performance. Performance is undoubtedly more simple, as it is a game of hard rules and absolutes. But after saying that we do see/hear about a dog receiving a nice V or VA rating while having what many judge to be a less than stellar performance during the courage test and limited bitework that occurs during the working class male and female trials just before the final conformation titles are bestowed. 4pack, while I hate to agree (absolutely nothing intended against you!) with you, I believe that you are correct. It is not only the S.V., but the U.S.c.A. as well. The "big-time" players have been able to influence the judging so that nowadays the F.C.I. standard seems to be a dusty old document that few can find. Bob-O

I'm not into show or politics and all I can do is, avoid buying and supporting these types of dogs. Buy the ones you like, keep on truckin' past the ones ya don't. Hopefully someday the "public" or pet people will catch on. Maybe after a few GSD that can't walk straight and only live to 5yrs, they may wake up and smell the dog hair. 1 showline was all it took to turn me off. I much prefer the BYB guys I rescued. Healthier and way more personality.

Why does everyone assume that if a dog is pretty, it is a coward, and if the dog is a grey, it is automatically brave? That just ain't the case. There are weak and problematic dogs in the "performance" lines as well as in the show lines. As far as the judges are concerned, the bias works both ways. Having trained and trialed both working and showlines, I have even seen judges evaluate dogs on how well they liked or disliked the handler. And I've seen them judge dogs from their own kennels and dogs they have imported for the people trialing. How is this ethical? But happily, most of the judges are fair and responsible and judge all the dogs based on performance. So be careful about generalizing. There are some excellent judges that call it like they see it and more importantly, they can read the dogs and know what they are seeing. Unfortunately this is more a characteristic of the SV judges than the American judges.