Endorsing a puppy, morally right or wrong? - Page 1

Is endorsing a puppy the right thing to do?

My friend went to view a litter of puppies today and the breeder informed her that all puppies will be endorsed and no matter what the endorsement will not be lifted. 

My friend wouldnt want to breed from any puppy she buys but she was very insulted that a breeder can claim to have such rights and power over someones dog just cause they claimed to have bred it. My friend pointed out that fact that she is paying for the puppy and that she believes that once payment is taken then any claim to the puppy that breeder has, should be invalid.

I tried telling my friend that some breeders do this to protect the dogs and to stop over breeding but my friend is convinced it is only because the breeder didnt want anyone else breeding in her area and that it should be considered illegal and wrong for a breeder to claim rights over a dog they sold and directly took cash for.

I can see her confusion and clear anger of the fact that she would have to bow down to another human being when it comes to making choices for own dog that she paid for but at the same time i can understand why a breeder would endorse on some level. 

Has many breeder on this site faced people like my friend who questioned why they wont have the right to breed without their permission and have lost potentially excellent ideal forever homes for their puppies because of these restrictions?

My friend would of bought the puppy she liked without a doubt and she stated she wouldnt breed from the puppy but she just didnt like the idea of never having the right to make the decision for herself. 






 

If I don't trust someone to make the right decisions about breeding, then why would I trust them with a puppy? I don't do that limited registration crap. I think it's far too hypocritical and it sets the breeder/buyer relationship off on the wrong foot. I have had really really good luck w/buyers; I have only had issues with one puppy whose owner turned out to not be who I had thought, but one bad apple certainly isn't enough to punish everyone else with good intentions by telling them what they can and can't do with their dog. I see both sides, but I agree with your friend's decision.

It's not a legal issue, but perhaps a moral one to sell pups on limited registration.  I used to sell only on "limited" terms, until hips were certified and the dog titled after age two.  Now, I'm doing the same, but I'm also offering pups with full registration at a higher price.  All my clients thus far have still opted for the "limited" terms regardless.

Your friend can still make that decision herself, breeding unregistered puppies.  If your friend doesn't like it, she can make the decision to purchase from a breeder that suits her.  But the breeder has every right to make registration terms, and the right to sell to or refuse your friend's business.  I refuse business very frequently as a breeder, and I anger a lot of would-be buyers who don't like my terms.

Sounds like your friend has issues about control, but most of the controlling elements of our lives are illusory, what we have allowed ourselves, in our minds, to be subject to imprinted limitations under the will of a governing body or individual person.  Some people embrace that kind of direction or guidance, others reject it but fail to overcome it.  But there's NO ONE whe doesn't bow down to SOMEONE in some regard!

I feel breeders have the right to do as they please for their dogs/puppies...But at the same time Buyers have the same right...To buy from and where they feel most comfortable with the way their treated and to get what they'd like...

As I said...breeders have the right to do as they please for their dogs/puppies...Is it right? That's not for me to say or most likely anyone else...But it's not the way I do business and it's not the way I purchase dogs/puppies from others...

What I've found is that most people/breeders that Restrict their Registrations are ones that have a personal issue with other people breeding and creating competition for the original breeder...
I personally...if someone buys a dog/puppy...from me...and then wants to breed that dog...And of course of everything else is correct...I feel very pround with have been a part of this new breeding...And most people that buy dogs/puppies from me and want to use them for breeding down the line...Will ask my opinion on this mating parter or that one...So usually I will have a hand in what is bred...

If you don't treat people fairly...then they won't want anything to do with you or anything you have to say or to add to a future breeding partner...

~Bob~

I think while it may be true breeders feel that way, competition is everywhere, and it's best to have a good relationship with your clients and support their goals as best you can.  If they look to you for guidance, then the potential is there to do more good than harm for each of you, because they will just find another breeder that will give them what they want anyway and go on to breed without any experienced advice.

On a sidenote, when a breeder disallows use of stud service from their kennel, I think THAT's more directly due to reducing competition.  I think that limited registration on puppies has more to do with peer pressures of the "self-righteous ethical" breed afficiandos, desire to reduce overbreeding in an already oversaturated market, or mistrust that the purchaser's would-be breeding plans could negatively reflect on their kennel program.  You can't beat back the tide of competition by stifling it's growth, and any improvements you can offer to the breed won't be made by expending your energy toward that end.

If your friend is as passionately determined as she seems, not easily influenced by the opinions of others, then she might make a fine breeder should she decide so, and a welcome addition in my book.

My pup is on limited registration until her hips and elbows are certified, and she titles in something. This helps ensure that the breeder isn't producing pups with this awesome lineage who people buy and use just as breeding dogs, without certifying hips or elbows, without attempting to title the pup. I like the idea, because it gets under my skin to see so many people post on here, from all over the world, who are offering pups for $1000 and up, whose parents are not titled or hip certified, but who rely on the dog's lineage. "From Zamp....Granddaughter of Troll..." things like that, and you look at the pedigree and the past generations are great, but the dog in question is 1 and 1/2, no hips or elbows done, no health testing whatsoever, and no titles. When I first started in wanting to sport, train, and breed GSDs, I went to a breeder who claimed that the male was a SCHH3, great hips, and great lines. I of course didn't know any better, and bought the pup. She's done great, but now that I'm actually getting into genetics and sport, I've looked up everyone in her pedigree, and realized that the male wasn't anything that the guy was claiming, and was just off of good show and working lines. The female was a Fleischerheim, who was great show lines and great hips in the background, who was bred early, not titled, and not hip certified. These are things responsible breeders are trying to prevent. If your friend doesn't even want to breed, what does it matter? Find another breeder. You might not get the quality that this breeder is producing and trying to keep going. I can understand where they're coming from. We have so many litters come into our clinic from dogs who bunny hop, but who haven't x-rayed their hips, even though we suggest doing so based on how the dogs are acting. It's a moral situation, not legal. I mean there are certain dogs that should not be bred. It doesn't matter what line they come from, their hips could be great or horrible. They could have temperment issues, or health issues, or not have any work drive whatsoever. Why not produce a litter and have something requiring the pups to get hip and elbow certified and titled before the limited registration be lifted?

In UK, endorsements are common with responsible breeders so your friend is going to come up against this a lot.    I do it to discourage casual breeding, often someone who had no intention of breeding when they buy the puppy gets approached and persuaded it is a good idea and this deters them and also deters those who have "accidents" with another GSD belonging to a friend or don't keep the dog for some reason and try to sell it on at an inflated price as breeding stock.  I sell my pups at a pet dog price as companions/working prospects with endorsements, if one turns out suitable for breeding and the owner is responsible, I will lift the endorsement on proof of satisfactory xray, no charge.  I tell people from the first enquiry that I do not sell puppies for breeding and this practise has lost me sales in the past, probably will in the future, but that's life, you can't please all the people all of the time and I feel that those who do buy from me have what they asked and paid for.

Anyone who is the legal registered owner of a dog can place an endorsement, not just the breeder, so it is a useful tool if a dog is being rehomed because it is not suitable for breeding to deter the cunning ones who assure you they only want a pet when what they really want is a cheap brood and sod why you think it is not suited for breeding, it will do for them.

I can't say I ever thought of it being a way to cut down the competition, I have a tendency to see the breeders I know as colleagues rather than rivals, but anyway, there are so many GSDs being bred that if someone doesn't buy from me, I'm sure they can find another puppy within 5 minutes on the internet so can't see it makes any difference.

Margaret N-J

In Germany there is no "limited registration" on pink papered pups. As soon as the dog is sold, the new owner has all rights and all duties.
I may be wrong, but the problem seems to be the AKC rules.

In Germany:

First of all your dogs parents need to have points 1 to 10

1. hips and elbows need to be x-rayed
2. DNA test
3. teeth have to be okay
4. BH trial
5. at least SchH1 trial/herding
6. AD
7. conformation rating
8. breed survey
9. females need to be at least 20 months old, males 24
10. you need a registered kennel

Missing one point - no pink papers...

If the owner decides to breed without SV / VDH / FCI there is no chance to get recognized papers, the puppies are worthless.

In USA ???

If people would change the breeding rules for German Shepherds, they wouldn´t need to think about "limited registrations". Breeding GS would be more difficult, no longer fast money...

I suppose another thing about limited/endorsed registration is it leaves no doubt about the purpose for which a pup is sold and if it grows up with missing teeth or or something, the purchaser can't claim to have bought it for breeding and sue the seller because they have lost a fortune in projected stud fees/puppies sales or ruined their lives forever because they were going to show it and their dreams of having a Champion are destroyed.

Margaret N-J

My 'mentor' (UK, deceased) always put endorsements on her puppies;  but made it very clear this would be lifted once the dogs had been hip-scored satisfactorarily.  She was not trying to restrict breeding but she was trying to reduce the number of dogs bred with bad hips.  I am unaware of her ever losing a sale for this reason - buyers seemed to 'get it'
without problems.  Maybe its partly to do with the way the argument is put across ?