Working/Show cross article - Page 1

I have created an article on this site that is ment to show the success that have been made with W/S crosses. Please feel free to add pictures of your success also under your own sub-page. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery.viewgroup?id=2991

i don't mean to rain on your parade, but gait and color are not any kind of proof that it was a successful breeding. i understand what the "golden middle" folks are doing, but unfortunately things are never that simple. as far as i can tell, they have succeeded in producing mediocre dogs for both show and work. one cannot simply breed showlines to working lines and expect any kind of success. there has to be a plan that will undoubtedly include 3 or 4 generations of refinement. the first generation is only a starting point and hardly a finished product. as with any outcrossing, it is a labor of love and takes time.

If you follow my other posts you will know what years of planning and research that has gone into this. It is not a total out cross as also explained in my other posts. You can talk all you want about starting points but when you plan and know the lines you are mixing things work much more quickly. These puppies have very high drives, temperaments to die for and solid nerves to add to the color/pigment, bone and movement. The experienced working/schutzhund homes are comletely enthralled with them as are their trainers. They are 6 months old and look great in all areas so far, including hip prelims. I don't consider this a "golden middle"! This phrase suggests that it is mediocure in all areas. These puppies are very good in ALL areas. But them again, I don't have to defend them to doubters as they will make the name and ARE making a name for themselves as I write. My pupose was to allow others who are having success to share. Debby

Where are these pups? How old?

Ziegenfarm: You make some excellent points. I would like to ask a question. What is the definition of a successful breeding? I guess we will get many different answers. When one breeds a litter for the ultimate working dogs, how many people do you think has the ability, time and money to get the full potential out of the dog? How many clubs are in the United States that opens their doors to the newbie, so that puppy can get the proper training? I believe the majority of good dog owners want a dog that they can live with. If you read the USA magazine the same people year after year are competing at the world level. They need the consistent dog in the 290s. What wrong with the person who competes in his or her local club and get the 250s and has a good time and enjoys their dog? What wrong with the so called mediocre dog? What wrong with an overall good representative of the breed that one can have a good time and at the end of the day can live in your house without jumping of the walls? I also understand that an open breeding or an outcross breeding can lead to the unknown. But any breeding is somewhat of a chance. I see a lot of Czech/DDR breeding which is a outcross breeding with the hope of getting the ultimate working dog. I think the so called golden middle may be the dog for the middle of the road person. Thanks for the exchange of ideas.

Bravo Pat, perfect. Most people are medioce handlers and don't want to make it to the BSP or WUSV. Nothing wrong with dogs that don't ping off the walls as long as they work.

I respect your breeding. But there is NO market for this kinda GSD by serious active handlers (work or show people) so it is utopia breeding. Which is oke with me. But for TOP working or show you have to choose. That is reality.

Vert true but when homing a puppy it's much easier to find a family to buy him, than a TOP competitor. So saying NO market is totally wrong. The majority of the market is looking for this mild mannered dog that can still do it's job.

working vs show vs Working/Show cross.. If the goal is to produce dogs that work and are able to do so, id like to pose the the following hypothetical... Lets say we take 120 random from the top producing working dogs, show dogs, that would be 40 from each line (working, Show, and working/show) Each line would be represented by 10 dogs from the following group. Group 1 9mo - 1.5 yrs Group 2. 1.5yrs - 4yrs Group 3. 5yrs - 7yrs Group 4. 8yrs + the reason i pose this question is because i assume that the working line group would work best. my thoery would be that the 8+ yr old working dogs would work better (on the whole) than the show line group. and would be more consistant than the working/cross group. Id like to hear other opinions, and if possible lets stay away from the one in a million long shots, id like to hear about generations of dogs that perform. ie a show dog program that has several generations at the worlds, or show/working crosses w/ 5 or 6 genertions of dogs that are v in the work and show

This isn't some new found craze. Look through various pedigrees on here and you will see breeders crossing lines like this way back in the 70's and 80's. Even the "MOST TITLED DOG" Tas, has a sprinkling of showline way back. I say that with a smile. =) People breed the dogs they need that works for them. Somewhere we got 2 seperate visions by the extreme needs of the TOP GSD breeders. 90% of the rest of the world wants and needs a healthy dog that they can live with. There are plenty of these dogs out there, they just are not the most used studs.