Do you believe in precise calcium/phosporous ratio in dog food? - Page 1

P:Ca  should be  0.8, so they say.

I find this hard to believe. In the wild, what a dog gets to eat does not conform to this ratio.

If you feed raw, this ratio is hard to maintain.

I would say too far off can be a problem, but a ratio of 0.6 to 1, say, cannot be a problem.

The bottomline is that if you add some chicken skin or fatty meat to your kibble, the balance will be off by P increasing. I do this routinely. Organ meats have more P than skeleton meat, so I don't add too much organs, like liver.

I think if 80% or more of the calories are from kibble, your dog will be just OK.

I am wrong on this?


 

More recent research has shown TOTAL DIETARY CALCIUM is likely more important than calcium/phosphorus ratios. In some breeds, too much calcium alone can cause skeletal abnormalities. This is why they make large breed puppy kibbles. Additionally, there is evidence to suggest that NATURAL sources of calcium and other minerals and vitamins may be better absorbed and utilized and that synthetic vitamins are worse than none at all in dog food. It's interesting research, if you have a lot of time on your hands. 

Yes, there are guidelines, but as individual dogs have individual metabolisms you really have to try out what is best for your dog...there is no "optimum" nothing. Not for dogs, not for humans.

Maybe you find this interesting:

http://www.dogsfirst.ie/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-complete-diet-2/

"This is why they make large breed puppy kibbles."

This is not the reason at all for LB pup food, IMO.

The Ca content is not associated with age of dog intended; it is a matter of the ingredient.

There is NO real reason for LB pup food, except to save on ingredient.

If you measure the amount of food you feed your LB pup, you do not need LB pup food.

If is the total calories and total Ca (and debatable P ) that decides the desirable amount of calorie and ca intake, not the percentage.

I never use LB pup food.

It is cheaper to make a food with high Ca content than low calcium content.

If you do not remove more bones and just grind them up, the CA content is going to be higher.

Therefore, high protein often corresponds to high calcium because the manufacturer just adds more meat together with the bones, and do not remove the bones.

High protein with low calcium is a good sign that the manufacturer cares enough to limit the bones.

Think what you want, but many formulas of large breed puppy food are designated "large breed" because they have restricted calcium, possibly protein, and fat levels to discourage rapid growth. You are misguided if you don't think percentages are important or that removing bones is the reason for lower calcium. There is a lot of research out there about what really goes into dog food; I think you might find it interesting to compare some better brands puppy foods vs. adult foods (check out Fromm, for example).  Puppy food should be higher in calories so they eat less of it at the proper calcium level without sacrificing energy and nutrition. If you feed a puppy adult food that has "equal" calcium percentages, but need to feed more of it because it's lower in calories, fat, etc., then you're really feeding more calcium than you intend, and could be seriously misunderstanding what you're really feeding your dog. 

Here is one explanation about supplementing: http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/calcium_do_i_supplement.htm

The canine body is designed to balance and utilize nutrition from animal sources (as in; bone, meat, eggs, raw milk.)  There are many nutrients from synthetic sources that the canine body does not recognize (like calcium) and so the canine body will absorb more nutrients from synthetic sources than it needs (and thus throw off it's body's nutrient balance.) 

When a dog consumes raw bones, egg shells or raw milk it's body only takes the calcium that it needs.  But when a dog consumes synthetic calcium it's body will take too much or all of it. 

This is why the poop from dogs fed on a raw meat and bone diet usually turns white and crumbles when it dries, because the body just passed on the calcium and other nutrients it didn't need. 
(and I've never heard or seen poop from a dog fed kibble that turns white and crumbles)

Puppy nutritional needs are very different than adults.  But, you can feed a puppy and an adult dog the same raw diet, their bodies naturally sorts out what it wants and doesn't want. 

(edited to add the word "take")

"Think what you want, but many formulas of large breed puppy food are designated "large breed" because they have restricted calcium, possibly protein, and fat levels to discourage rapid growth."

Higher protein, percentage and total,  has nothing to do with growth rate of pups. A pup food should have high protein content.

High Calcium (debatable P ratio) and high total calories do.

High protein and high fat increase taste and can make free-choice, an abomination per se, even worse; otherwise, LB pup food is to increase profit,  a marketing tool of fake specialization and a means to charge more for less ingredient.

I never use LB pup food because I always measure the amount to feed for a pup at ideal weight. I choose a pup food of relatively low calcium content, say no  more than 1.2%.  

"Think what you want, but many formulas of large breed puppy food are designated "large breed" because they have restricted calcium, possibly protein, and fat levels to discourage rapid growth."

High fat content has the advantage of needing to feed less, and alllowing less total calcium and protein.

LB pup food makes NO sense as long as you measure the food, and weigh and look at the pup with wisdom.

This is assuming micronutrients are enough, as they usually are.

High Desert, you're just not getting what I'm saying at all. And I guess I'm not getting what you're saying, either, as I don't see what the point is that you're trying to make. 

ASSuming the micronutrients are enough in an adult kibble to feed restricted amounts to a puppy is ASSuming quite a lot, I'm afraid, in many cases. Puppies are growing and need MORE food, not less. Feeding them less of an adult food to keep calcium lower doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why not just feed them raw that they can utilize properly (as EuroShepherd also pointed out) or feed them a balanced food from a good company that is designed for a large breed puppy's needs? 

Large breed puppy food makes perfect sense if you have a large or giant breed w/a high metabolism who needs more nutrition and calories than could be obtained from an adult food without overdoing the calcium (likely  synthetic). Take a look at dogs around you on the street and then try to tell me that people have the sense to "measure the food and weigh and look at the pup with wisdom."

Quoting myself from earlier: Puppy food should be higher in calories so they eat less of it at the proper calcium level without sacrificing energy and nutrition. If you feed a puppy adult food that has "equal" calcium percentages, but need to feed more of it because it's lower in calories, fat, etc., then you're really feeding more calcium than you intend, and could be seriously misunderstanding what you're really feeding your dog.