unsocialized pup growling - Page 1

 

I bought a 9 month old Czech GSD from a reputable breeder who I have had a dog from before. She is now 11 months old. The pup had not been off the breeders property, had not been trained and was living with a few littermats and other dogs. She got along well with the other dogs and was at the bottom of the pack. When we went to see her she seemed very friendly and excited to see us. I have had her in basic obedience training for the past 3 weeks. The poor girl trembles when we first get into class and the first 2 sessions she would not eat the treats I offered and got as far under my chair as she could manage. She has been gradually improving and the last class she ate the treats. The pup has started to growl (no teeth) when one of the trainers gets too close. The trainers have said to ignore this behaviour becasue its based on fear. The trainer has lots of experience with protection breeds. Lately when I've been walking her she will growl if a stranger gets too close. The breeder thinks I should be correcting her. The pup comes from good Czech lines but both her parents are alphas and guardy dogs. I plan on training her in obedience and possibly doing agility or tracking. I don't want to encourage her to be overly protective. So should I be correcting her at this point or focus on building her confidence and deal with the growling later? Is this normal behaviour for a pup under these circumstances?
thanks,
Juno11

My thoughts would be to correct her for unacceptable behavior and find a way to encourage acceptable behavior. Turn the situation around now. Try something like having someone approach, correct the growl, continue the approach and let that person reward her when she does not continue to growl.

I never let unacceptable behavior manifest. Chances are you will have to deal with a bigger problem later.

I agree with Dog1 that little problems begin to make big ones if left to fester - however, one question I would be interested in first is how she reacts with yourself.     Is she totally confident with you - do you have her full trust - if you dropped something in the home and she were with you would she scat away, and more importantly how long before she recovers if so.
Have you had to chastise her and if so, what is her reaction to that?    I`m not a working dog expert, but see many dogs with nervous aggression come through our trai ing school, and have learned during this to read the dog first before you start to put a plan in action.   Would love to be able to help you, and to hear others views on this.
Some dogs can work through pressure and become greater dogs, others crumble, others stay in between - those are the more difficult ones.    Mo..

The pup had not been off the breeders property, had not been trained and was living with a few littermats and other dogs. She got along well with the other dogs and was at the bottom of the pack.

This is the problem as I see it, in your puppy's case.  When living with littermates and other dogs (probably due to space considerations and also for convenience), she was never allowed to come into her own and be herself, during the time your breeder had her.  She had become passive and used that as a "survival" mechanism, within the dog pack she lived with.   One of the reasons why I firmly believe now, that a young 8-week old puppy is the best bet, where one can mould the puppy, EXACTLY the way we want, without other negative influences shaping the puppy into a specific mould. 

In your case, she will require EXTENSIVE socialization and be allowed to continuously confront her fears (and realize that there is nothing to be fearful about).  I think if you invest that time in her now, she will be a confident (as confident as she will ever get) dog, in a few months.

The growling is a fear reaction.  She is just shy and using the growling as a defense mechanism to bolster her confidence.  Once her confidence is restored via extensive socialization, she will stop doing it.

In my case, my 6-month old was also in the same boat as your pup.  She too spent most of her time in the breeder's property (some socialization was allowed to her, thankfully) and thus when I got her (when she was 5-months old), she was fearful about pretty much everything.

In the month since I got her, I have been doing  a few things:

a) Extensive socialization, where she gets exposed to all the things she has never seen in her short life.  I allow her to confront her fears and to realize that there is nothing to be fearful about.  Initially she tried to bolt and hide behind me, but she has completely stopped doing that lately, and currently, confidently faces situations.  I don't try to calm her down, when facing "challenges" that would disturb her, but simply remain calm myself, and allow her to see for herself that there is nothing that is threatening here.....and do that again and again and again till she realizes that there is no "threat" here and completely ignores those situations.

b) I take EXTENSIVE walk in the woods with her, mainly to bond with her.  I allow her to be off-leash in the woods, and over time, we have developed a tight bond....she gets to move around on her own in the woods, but remains within calling distance around me.  Whenever I call her and she comes to me,  I make it really pleasant for her (rubbing her tummy, chest, ears  etc).  Now she comes from much further away, whenever I call her, since coming to me when her name is called, is associated with a positive experience.   She is superbly agile and she scoots right up a 100ft extremely steep/sheer wooded hillside and then scoots down too (she is absolutely confident out in the woods with nothing there bothering her one little bit).   I intend to take that to the next level and deepen that into a STRONG bond......I am almost there.  During this time, I do gently correct her (by telling "no") but NO strong corrections at this time......the bond that is developing, will just dissolve, if I were to go that route of corrections.  She truly trusts me now  and realizes that I am truly looking out for her and got her back.....which I intend to leverage during her upcoming training.

c) NO obedience training yet, even though I do take her to dog classes, for the purpose of socializing her with other puppies/dogs.  Once we bond strongly, I will train her myself and once she is bonded, I don't foresee any problems in quickly training her, since she is proving herself to be supremely intelligent (unnaturally intelligent for a dog - a true problem solver). 

Hope my experience is helpful to you.

Thanks for responding and giving experiences and advice. I agree that its much easier to train a young pup. My last GSD was a pup when I got him and he turned out to be an incredible dog with no issues and I trusted him 100% in any situation.  this female needed a home and I knew when I got her that she would need some work. 
 I think she's confident with me but I might be the only seculity she has right now. I have dropped things on the floor to test her reaction and she has been mildly startled but recovers quickly and goes over to investigate. She was terrified of our 6 month old kitten when we brought her home and would not enter any room if he was in it but now she's chasing him around the house.
I have chastised her for things she does wrong in the house and I don't find her to be submissive, there is no piddling or slinking away. Sometimes I have to give her a very firm "no" while looking her in the face before it has much effect. The only time she acts submissivly is when I put on her prong collar.
When out walking I take her over to things that she's afraid of and she will approach on her own  but I wouldn't say she does it confidently, her hackles are up and head down.
 I have been walking her off leash in the country which she really enjoys and appears confident in this situation. The training class is a puppy class with all pups her age and the trainer gives everyone lots of space
I think I have to agree that I should be correcting her gently with a "no" when she growls but not sure if i should wait a little until we are more bonded or start now. I really feel uncomfortable allowing this behaviour to continue and I do not want this to escalate into something more.

Whatever you do, remember that a correction applied without a reward may get the dog associating the correction with the environmental object she is fear growling at. 

You want to build positive associations with seeing people or people approaching.  If you correct her she may start to associate the correction with the person approaching and NOT with her growling.  It can backfire.. so pay attention. 

Might be better to train what you want her to do (sit?  Silence in respond to a command? attention on you?) and redirect your dog to do what you want... (if you can) rather than correct her. 

Lots of times a dog owner wants to have the dog "stop" doing something and don't think about what they want the dog to do instead and train the dog to do that.  IOW's replace the undesirable behavior with another, desirable beahvior.. and do so consistently . 




 

What aaykay said . I agree with her about the root cause of the problem is probably from staying on breeders property and being low on the pack. The behavoir you saw on the breeders property is what she is capable of with extensive socialization and training also. Still, there are some developmental windows missed during this period that will never be regained...JMO

I don't disagree with anything stated above. I would like to add one thing.

If YOU have not established yourself as higher in the pack than the dog, then the dog is going to make his own decisions when someone approaches.

This is exactly why dogs act different (protection wise) with various members of the family.

This is also why you should never leave dogs alone with little children, because the dog feels higher in the pack than the child and he will often make his/her own decisions around the child.

I agree with RASS! Since you have worked with her in obedience,  upon approach of a stranger or upon her growling behavior, give her a command and have treats to reward her obedience to that command. Make it a happy command and do not allow stress to come into your voice or body language. Make it happy and playful. Maybe even bring along a favorite toy and just distract her with the toy and playing with her as the person passes. If she breaks the play or command to bark or growl, then and only then give her a quick correction on a pinch collar and immediately continue playing.  The correction needs to be quick firm and immediate to the undesired behavior and over just as quickly.
Hope that helps!!
Keep us updated!
Debby

Lots of times a dog owner wants to have the dog "stop" doing something and don't think about what they want the dog to do instead and train the dog to do that.  IOW's replace the undesirable behavior with another, desirable beahvior.. and do so consistently .

BINGO! That pretty much covers it! Good luck! jackie harris