VA2 Quanto von der Wienerau - Page 1

Questions:

1. Is the pedigree of VA2 Quanto von der Wienerau available in PDB correct?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=77
2. I thought we had 2 seperate bloodlines namely Canto & Quanto in addition to the 3rd one which is Mutz, is Canto and Quanto one bloodline not 2?

Quote from the 1995 interview with Mr. Martin Wienerau by Mr. Carbajal:


RC: "Which dogs came out of this female?"
WM: "Out of the first litter with Bertha I had two females. One went to Ernie Loeb in the United States. It was the first dog I sold to the U.S.A. The other female which I kept, Ws the mother of the 1961 intermediate Sieger Elch Wienerau. In the litter after that came Dixie Wienerau. Dixie in combination with Jalk Fohlenbrunnen gave me the "L" litter Wienerau, and all the dogs that have the colors you see today in my kennel (deep mahogany red and black) come from Liane. Liane was Canto Wienerau’s mother. And Quanto was the product of an inbreeding 2,2 on Dixie. At that time this close breeding was allowed."
RC: "So although we always speak of the Canto and Quanto ‘lines’ they were really from the same line." 
WM: "Absolutely. They were the product of close breeding. In those times we had the situation where two prominent sires were responsible for the betterment of the breed. One, however, excelled in producing males, and the other females. Quanto was the smaller dog but with the better head, he produced the males. Canto was perhaps the nicer dog but did not have the head, he gave the breed many very nice females."

Link to above interesting interview:
http://www.bmk.org.uk/martin.php

Walter says that Quanto was linebred 2-2 on Dixie while the pedigree we have in PDB says different, he was linebred :
4 - 5,5........................................... in VA1 Alf vom Nordfelsen

So does that mean Quanto's pedigree entry here is incorrect? And how come no one noticed that?
Walter agrees that Quanto and Canto are one bloodline, do you agree? And if that is the truth does it mean that almost all our showlines are from only one bloodline?

Ibrahim

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/23168/Quanto-von-der-Wienerau


The data here seems to be correct. I always refer to the bloodline plan made by Roswitha Buck, which shows how Alf, Canto and Quanto are connected. Unfortunately since Roswitha died a few years ago, her website is down and I don't know who would sell the plans now.
The SV.de website used to have the plans for members as well.
These dogs lived at a time were the (West-) German breeding stock was relatively small (compared to now).
I really like Alf vom Nordfelsen and all my dogs were/are descendents of him. I think he is a major contributor for the sleak long medium sized working line shape whereas Quanto and Canto represent more the, what is now called showline, broad chested shape.

Ibrahim, All is good. "And Quanto was the product of an inbreeding 2,2 on Dixie." He meant, that Quanto mother (Yoga) was inbred 2,2 on Dixie and he was product (son) coming from such inbred. Sebastian

Oh Sebastian, thanks for the explanation, I already feel embarrassed but thanks a lot.

Ibrahim

Thanks TingiesandTails, interesting.

Ibrahim

You are very welcome.

What is more interesting is that even though Quanto was linebred on Alf, Alf is not in his male bloodline. Quanto and Canto both go back to Ralf Osnabrucker Land.

Alf bloodlines were continued by Mutz - Hill Farbenspiel and Fero - Troll or Timmy and Yoschy.

Clever highlights Seby, thanks for sharing, looks you did lot of research at a certain time which paid off.

Ibrahim

Since the mother of Quanto was inbred 2-2(Dixie), I would like to find out more about Dixie. As this would give me better insight into what were strong influences in Quanto.

Even though slightly related Canto and Quanto have 2 very different histories of production. Canto was used for producing the conformation direction that the SV wanted to go. Quanto had both that kind of conformation as well as strong working drives and was a proven producer of those drives, as was Mutz. Mutz did not have the same conformation and was not used as much because of it. Mutz and Quanto are dogs I look for even today, in a pedigree. I cringe every time I see Canto, because he had and produced very poor character.  If you go back into some of the old pedigrees in that era, you can see that for the most part , Canto blood was most always countered with Mutz or Quanto to try to keep the working drives and character alive.
Dixie was 3/3 on Axel who was known as a very strong German Police dog.  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=518 
Hope that helps some!
Debby
 Why was  who who