Genetics - Page 1

It has been genetically proven that the "panda" coloration GSD is geneticaly identical to a standard coloration GSD.  So, in what would seem the most scientific sense "Panda Shepherds" are German Shepherd Dogs.  I realize that clubs may not choose to recognize them or would rather sub-categorize them based upon a non-standard color, but frankly, to me that would suggest whatever else these organizations are they simply are unscientific when confronting this issue.  Indeed, many of the criticisms that surround the "panda shepherd" as being a GSD seem equally unscientific.  "They have to be cross breeds because I don't recognize or 'like' the color" is about as unscientific as you can get, especially in the face of genetic evidence to the contrary.  

In short, "Panda Shepherds" are genetically German Shepherds.  Whether you choose to like their coloration or not does not make them so nor does it not make them so.  Their genes do.  

i have seen some panda shepherds who are wonderfuly correct in structure but have terrable food alergys one was deaf they have alot of issues because of the recessiveness in the color. just like breeding 2 blue merle catahulas will produce blind and/or deaf puppies.

The panda gene has been proven to be dominant, not recessive. Any genetic problems would likely be due to breeding to dogs that are too closely related, thus exposing harmful recessives.

These dogs may be purebred German shepherds, but they do not conform to the breed standard, which also discriminates against many other inheritable traits, such as floppy ears, faded or missing masks, and not enough black on the tail.

Pandas may be correct in structure, but until the breed standard changes, they will not be accepted in the show ring.

I have always been intrigued by the panda trait, especially as it's dominant. Has a homozygous panda been produced yet? This is the first I have heard of health problems associated with the trait. Can someone point me in the direction to learn more about that? Is it something that was just in the foundation lines, or is it specifically colour-linked in this case?

I think Siantha's mention of health issues may be somewhat anecdotal and don't know how representative that could be of the total population. Also given that the panda gene is dominant and not recessive and isn't the same as breeding merle to merle, I think it likely that the color pattern is irrelevant in terms of any health issues that there may be in panda's. I haven't heard of any specific health problems in pandas, but haven't taken any particular interest in them either, so would be interested to hear from someone who has researched it. I would beware of just jumping to the conclusion that it is colour linked though.

Anyhow, hopefully Siantha will be back to qualify her statement. 

Panda could be either Dominant or Co-Dominant. Dominant being that half of the offspring from breeding one parent panda to non panda gene related dog. Co-Dominant expressing dominance, but also factor when breeding one panda dog to another panda dog produces exceptionally white, or maybe even mostly white dog? (unsure if it has been done before). When this overly white dog is bred with non panda gene related it produces ALL Panda offspring, rather than just half.
I am unaware of these breedings have been done yet or proven.
I really disagree that these colors should NOT be bred for or cultivated. Every color variety is a mutation of some kind. The breed standard has changed for years in Physical SHAPE of the dog itself, these are skeletal and muscular changes. I believe the majority of these traits have not IMPROVED the breed whatsoever.  To say that a coat mutation should not be bred to attain in future generations is SILLY. If this were truly the case then we should be breeding in only colors! Sable, Sable with white, Solid Black, and Solid White, as these are the natural colors of wolves! In reality the only coat type or color genes that should be bred out are the lethal genes, those which in their homozygous produce stillborn, or reabsoarbed fetuses (merle, chinese crested, tailless genes, etc.).
I really believe we should be breeding traits that improve and expand our breed. The way our breed standard and the colors of our dogs came about was from breeders, like us, breeding for colors and traits WE find appealing. They didn't breed because of what a picture says the dog should look like hundreds of years after its creation.
I personally like straight backed, solid German Shepherds. I like colors that are naturally occuring genetic mutations that are not produced by outcrossing to other breeds. These dogs are German Shepherds. The Panda, White, Liver, Blue, Brindle, Isabelle, Ay Fawn, Piebald, Sables, and the mix (am I forgetting any?), they are ALL German Shepherds, we should be expanding our breed, outcrossing with healthy stock that has traits that we the breeder like and enjoy! The problem is irresponsible breeders, not colors of dogs. If you are an honest breeder, you disclose genetics, and family history it shouldn't matter what color a HEALTHY, and SOUND dog is.
Sorry if this was a rant, and I know I am new to the forum, but I really feel strongly about this issue, it is present in every breed of dog. It is about a "standard" of perfection, that for our breed has changed so MANY times since the breeds creation.
Adam

Adam, yes there have been numerous pand x panda breeding but it seems we will never know if this is co or fully dominant as the fetuses die in utero.  A post of mine from an earlier thread -

I've had some correspondence with the researchers working on this.  There have been numerous panda x panda breedings, but so far, DNA analysis has revealed no panda mutation homozygotes (double panda).  This breeding would normally produce ~25%, so the assumption is that the panda mutation is lethal in double dose.  I believe the ratio of colours in the litters is normal for the remaining colours ie. 67% panda markings (heterozygotes) 33% normal GSD colour.

The up shot of this is that panda can never breed true as all panda coloured dogs carry the recessive wild-type non mutation.

Just a mention of the odd occurrence of white markings in the breed that are not directly descended from original pandas.  It's quite normal for white markings to crop up sporadically in any breed and the chances of these being another mutation identical to panda is remote.  More likely due to rare recessives carried in the gene pool or just a blip in pigment cell migration.  The difference with panda is that it segregates as a dominant and has now been DNA identified.

So that would mean the Panda gene has nothing really to do with pedigree from a breeders standpoint. Just a random inheritable mutation that popped up, just the way that all color variants came about. Random mutation that breeders select as a trait they wish to continue. Thanks for the reply, I am very interested in this topic.
Adam