let's compare something - Page 1

     All I ever read about from many here are the lacking deficiency of the sl work ability and how wl do not do well in the ring. Here are some thoughts I have held a long time on this line controversy.

     They are not apples and oranges... more like juice oranges and navel oranges. What are the life differences of these two types of the same breed? Juice oranges are all about the core of the fruit like the wl is about the core only... It's work ability. Navel oranges have to be tasty and have the appeal to make someone see it's beauty and say I want to taste that and see if it is just as good inside as outside.

      The life of the wl that most own that object publicly to sl dogs is drive, drive, drive oh and we need drive to hit the sleeve flashier and harder. Does not matter much about the rind or the segments as long as it does it's task and brings home the sport titles. Start early so pup must be a serious drive with a gator snap and unshakable hard exterior. We breed them to get it done and look like a ninja doing it. Most spend their training time almost always with the person that will be in the sport ring with them and they have a tight bond from doing it together which in my opinion is awesome and a huge plus. I admire that let me at it work drive. I do not admire it in thousands of rescue dogs that have no handlers to use them in sport that are produced for those sport dogs selected from each litter. They do not make a fit into the typical American pet family as they have no tasks to preform and most pet owners just have zero clue beyond watching dog gurus on tv how to solve all their dog related issues or heaven forbid the local pet smart positive only trainers. They are bred for a purpose but even so why not care how they look as well? Why is that such an awful goal? I believe some of the ones that are bred with conformation in mind which are rare would do fantastic at dog shows and give the sl a run for the money if people properly took the time to train for it and not scoff the necessity of having to just get that SG. I appreciate the wl owners that strive for a V.  I feel the sport wl is getting far displaced to what the wl in real jobs that was cherished used to be. It would be a shame to allow that overdrive sharpness that is in many wl these days to destroy the heart that has been loved all these years of the breed. We cannot loose that original flavor that made it the dog it is and loved by everyone from the pd to the sport enthusiast because they have changed to malinois because the new flashier wl gsd has become to unstable in public work for police departments or they are looking for an even easier, quicker, flashier hitting dog breed  to train for the sleeve. If all the working jobs and all the sport enthusiasts start changing

like many have to a new breed, where will that leave your dogs? Tangerines will be the new flavor and the juice spoils on the trees.

        The life of the sl is far different. It is a shame so many good dogs do not get used to strengthen the generations all because of marketing or ego over the different types of sl emerging because every venues has a separate idea of what is beautiful and most of them are not utilizing the working heart of the breed. The proper show line is not what is judged fairly online. Most of the nay Sayers only see the ones on ads or only the ones shared for having a issue so that they can be laughed at. On the ads which I have noticed are becoming more and more a crate full of rejects instead of oranges for the store bin just because the people who know no better will pay great sums of money for them. If wl see all these terrible looking dogs being sold and for more than a good wl dog brings of course they are going to feel like they bit into a sour grapefruit. SL dogs have dual lives. They have to learn and campaign in the show ring which is a first job and have a second job of schutzhund or herding. If you only have one job that pays the bills you are fresh and better trained and have more time to devote to perfecting that one skill set. If it is only your second job and like the wl in conformation, they only do it because they have to it is going to present itself poorly just like the conformation performance of a wl who is not handled properly in preparation for it. As long as either poor showing in the bite work or the conformation is allowed on either side it will not improve. The sl brings more money in pet market for two reasons. It takes a great more bankroll to finish out a sl as only the top dogs are used by anyone hoping to make good sales and they are most time not always a more stable dog for pet industry. Personally, I would love to end pet industry on both lines and feel it would do wonders for the dogs. People do enjoy the golden orange look of the sl rind though I love the look of a nice bred wl just as much. Many sl are handled by so many people that I have found they shut down that part of them that only answers to one person really affecting that I will do anything for you and I trust you  drive in bite work. The best dogs I have seen have had a "relationship" with the people handling them. I have based this sl description mainly on German working lines as the American just does not relate with most of my points described here as they do not do schutzhund. The sl is going to continue downward as long as it is based on how much they can market pups for, allowing poor work performance and breeding to a dog just because it has a VA, and squeezing out of any new competitors just because it may hurt large kennel operations profit line should they learn enough that they try their hand at breeding.

     There are so many more points I have floating around in my mind but this is a start. I love the gsd and I do not see lines drawn amongst them in my heart. What I see are drifting continents that do not need to become separate governments and countries. My grammar has never been a strong point, but I do hope I have started some others thinking out there on these issues. We need to quit fighting amongst ourselves and saying eeewwwww you have a sl you can't train with us or conformation is stupid why must I have to train for the ring? Do it for our breed and not because we cant deal with it ourselves and our own prejudices. If you feel a sl sucks then offer to help train sl owners in sport, instead of writing them off and knocking them aside. If you feel a wl owner does not understand the show ring, take one of them along to a ring training or to a show and offer your help.

Well, there is one thing for certain and that is that this topic will stir up a lot of controversy :). The truth is that I agree with you. It seems like both sides have become extreme in their vision. 

My last GSD was a SL dog. He was born in 1993 and he definitely could work (so I was told by the people at my club), but due to illness in the family I had to give up my much loved hobby of Schutzhund- never titled my dog. Many years ago I also had a WL dog that had very nice bone, color and structure and was an awesome all around dog, but he had severe hip dysplasia so I was never able to see what he was capable of doing. It sounds like things have changed a lot in the GSD world, but that is largely based on what I hear on this forum because I'm not actively involved in showing or sport.  I have seen some gorgeous WL dogs and from what I hear there are still some SL dogs that can work, but it seems that it doesn't happen very often either way.

It would be wonderful if the WL and SL people could unify to produce the ultimate GSD, but that isn't likely to happen. i know there are some that are crossing WL with SL, but they are far and few between.  People are people... JMO

I re-read my post and it sounds a bit negative, but that was not my intention. I'd love to see unity between the SL people and the WL people, and combine that with consistent, thorough health screenings, the GSD could be better than ever.

To-may-toe, To-mah-toe!  I've been addicted to the sport for 32 years.  My late wife and I started with AKC show line dogs, involved with our dogs doing AKC obedience, show, and schutzhund. Eventually, we transitioned to SV dogs. I entered my AKC dog in the first sieger show held in America 1980; German Shepherd Dog Club of the United States! used SV rules.  Dog was excused.  My point.  I've been around and seen alot.  My observation:  Sportfriends (that's how we old timers address ourselves) who have been in the game for awhile pay little attention to the W/L S/L crap.  It's about the dog!  The preferred term, by the way, is "Sport Dog" not working.  It's generally the people with the least experience who perpetuate the WL/SL antagonism.  Can't wait until somebody eventually shows up with a harlequin shepherd dog.  Concerning the perceived trend to Malenois preference, I wonder how much economics influences the trend, if it indeed exists.
Closing with a quote from the late Gernot Riedel asnwering a question about his preference: "The good looking dogs don't cost any more than the ugly ones."

i would LOVE for everyone to get along and just enjoy working our dogs. weather you perfer the black and reds or the black and browns the blacks the bi's or the sables. ITS ALL THE SAME BREED registered under the same name. ok yes we people have turned them into what they where not intended to be a german shepherd should beable to work accourding to max if it cannot work it is no longer a german shepherd. that goes for working and show and sport dogs. i have seen and worked with some amazing looking show lines who are also very good in schutzhund and some who have no drives for it at all and are stunning in conformation and some who are unhealthy geneticly. and i have worked with some amazing wl/sport dogs who can work till they die and have terrable conformation or manners XD and some that have no drive and such. i think people should strive to get a top conformation rateing on ALL their dogs and work the dogs agility/sar/narcotics/LE/schh/hearding something i see too many dogs being bred who cant do 2 of these yet i think shepherds should be able to do any of these and still come home and live a good life with a family. yes i have working/sport dogs but i still will say wow at a sl who can work and get good rateings and no i dont look at sl titles i wanna see the dog work i have seen many a dog who has a schh3 title and dosent know what a sack is  but there is only so much people who truely care about the breed can do because the public will do what they want and it will probably never change. but i am striveing to make a difference in my own little way.