Schutzhund first and then French Ring, or vice versa? - Page 1

Assuming I want to train my dogs in both sports, what makes most sense to begin the dog with? I was thinking Schutzhund first and later French Ring, to avoid having the dog bite the schutzhund decoy in the leg, but I'm open to suggestions. I will not be training the dog in the pallisade jump because the fence in my yard is 2.3 meters, and the last thing I want is to teach my dog to escape into the neighbors house.
By the way, I don't want to start a Shutzhund vs French ring "which is best" fight, so please no trashing-the-other comments. I've enjoyed both in the past, just not sure how to train a dog for both.

As long as your dog can handle the rigors of FR, so far as the helper work is concerned, start with Sch and go to FR after, but, not that many dogs can do both well. I always believed that you "cant serve two masters", one will suffer at the other's expense.
Not training the dog for the wall jump also means that you are not going to title it in FR either?

Not training the dog for the wall jump also means that you are not going to title it in FR either?

Yeah, not looking for the title, just for the fun of it.

You can pass in French Ring without a palisade, you just have to do that much better in all the other exercises to make up for the points you lost.  However, teaching the palisade doesn't mean your dog is going to jump your fence, I have trained quite a few dogs over the years to do the palisade, and none have ever jumped my exterior fence, which has ranged from 4-8 feet high.

I would do the leg foundation first, but teach the obedience Schutzhund style.  Or you can teach the dog the difference between a suit and a sleeve and teach both at the same time, but it takes some skill on the part of the trainer/decoy and clarity from the dog.  I have found though that it's easier to take a leg dog and teach them to go up into the sleeve, than a sleeve dog and teach them to be a leg dog.  Not always, all dogs have a personal preference on high vs low, but in general.  For example JaJa -SchIII, FR Brevet.  She was originally trained in Schutzhund, then later I tried to cross her into FR.  After 6 months of working on leg technique, if a decoy put his arm out with a Sch style presentation, she'd get suckered into going for it every time.  On the flip side her granddaughter Kita - FRI was started in Sch and later transfered to Ring, and it's never been an issue, she bites high for Sch without issue, but when she has options (ie in the suit) she prefers to be a leg dog every time, doesn't matter if they present an arm Sch style or not.  But I find fewer dogs like Kita and more like JaJa.

 Imprint obedience with a Schutzhund foundation and train bite technique on legs first; at least that worked for me. I cross-trained my mali in Schutzhund and French Ring concurrently from a puppy onward. He’s currently SchH III, IPO III, FR III and competes nationally, but the cross-training caused some sacrifices in his trial performance at higher level events in both sports. For example, don’t expect to maintain focused heeling for 45 min – 1 hr in a FR III routine (especially if it’s 100 oF J); but …. if the dog learns that constant eye contact is not mandatory, he will also fall into this pattern more easily at a Schutzhund trial. On the flipside, consistent sleeve work can impact the dog’s targeting preferences on the suit even if he was originally imprinted on legs; which you should recognize and address accordingly in training.
 
The dog needs to be really clear-headed; although some small adjustments in training will make things easier for the dog; for example, teaching the dog to come in “stick-side” in the Schutzhund blind search may make it easier to teach a FR perimeter search later. Also, keeping the dog in a “sit” at the start line for the FR flee attack vs. “down” for the Schutzhund escape can clarify that one allows an automated attack as soon as the helper moves (Schutzhund), while the other requires authorization from the judge once the decoy is already in motion.
 
If you want to do this for fun and have a strong, clear and intelligent dog and knowledgeable decoy, sure, go for it. If you want to be competitive at the highest level, I would not advise to train for both disciplines with the same dog … just my experience :-).  
 
Feel free to have a look at the video links below and you may be able to identify some challenges that cross-training created in my malinois. These videos were taken at a national Schutzhund III trial and French Ring III Club trial (in the pouring rain) of the same dog, taken about 6 months apart:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jL0WiO9nc
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwZALu5GSTs&feature=related
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EweoL1jxoKg
 
Good luck and have fun training your dog!
Daniela