Thoughts on aggressive dominate female - Page 1

I meet this almost 4 year old bitch this past weekend. Excellent bloodlines - West German show with herding titles with dominate strong temperments. She is the pack leader on her owners property. She is beautiful... Problem is she never been really socialize. She has some basic Obedience but doesn't like people other than her owner. So while I was working with her she was muzzled. after awhile of treats and healing treats and healing, I felt comfortable enough to take the muzzle off. Still treat and heal.. treat and heal. She did good until I was out of treats. She first gave a quick grab to my pants (lower leg). I ignored it and maybe I shouldn't. Then a few minutes later she grab my thigh (just a grab not a bite of breaking skin) she didn't even rip my pants. Idk... Was interested in thoughts of those of you that have been training for some time. Is there hope for this dog or would she be a waste of my time. I am so torn to see such a great dog turn out like this. I am excited about the idea of the challenge but really feel I wouldn't get far with her staying where she is at for the sessions. If it is possible to help her with people I feel I need to take her out of her element. Eager to hear your thoughts. Thanks

They told you she was aggressive and you didn't have a leash and collar on her ? Treats do nothing to address the issue at hand. Yes, you should be training her somewhere other than at her home. You did not say if you have worked with a dog like this before or not. 

Typically, what you saw there were experimental bites to see what you would do. You did nothing, so what did you teach her ?

i think you leave out other aspects /.... this dog is not merely aggressive , and dominant.. she is il- mannered and a spoiled brat !! aside from lack of socialization .. she just thinks she can do what she wants to do !! i liken this to a teenager , spoiled brought up , no manners , arrogant and thinks it can get it's way without having to offer anything in  return .. NO .. if that dog WANTED to BITE you .. at 4 yrs old it surely would have !! i have worked aggressive , very defensive insecure dogs .... this as you described is not the norm !! after having interacted with you .... obviuosly she realized you were no threat !!- and that is proven in that , she not only did not bite you but the  bites , if intended to be bites, may have been non -relenting .. there are many other commentries-  but i was not there to see .. HUH .. she could just have been dog-handling you sort to speak .. simply .. because the treats run out- she was controlling you , ? protesting ..  ... who knows .. again i was not there to "SEE HER".
           if you keep this dog in your company .. she needs attitude adjustment , rank order .. not advocating it being a blantant physical interaction ... remeber .. as i wrote in another thread ... you control the dog with your mind ... and influence the dog's mind that it learns it's place, manners and self control !! you are the one that will control every single aspect of this dog , no matter how slight it may be .. such as .. i would control this dog as it even moves it's head - control where it looks , when it looks , , where it goes ,, when & how it eats .. etc.       i hear ... OBEDIENCE... that is just a so called watered down word it is so ridiculous !! dogs , in a manner of speaking , read your thoughts !! i will use my eyes and talk to dogs in that respect !! applicable here .. it is not just about , dog sit, down , stand .. your whole demeanor , your presence , your attitude .. [ this is what i was getting at ,  in the 'horse whisperer thread posted here] what you decide you do /don't do and what you decide the dog does/does not.. . this is not about emotion , battle of wills .. it is about your realtionship to each other .. that dog is going to respect you [ which by putting it's mouth on you was the furthest thing from that]. it is going to realize that it lives and it survives by you fulfilling it's  needs. the RAMBO menatlity is going to be extinguished !! you are going to have to shape that dog's attitude and outlook . it will realize , in a kind way i hope , that you are boss and it takes it's direction from you ..[ that is obedience .. a way of living it's life] 

Thanks for the comments

@Jeff - Yes I had a leash and collar on her and I did correct her after the second attempt and then we took another 10 paces and I returned her to her owner. Immediately upon return she went back to growling and barking. No, I have never worked with a dog like this.

@Alphapup - I agree, If she wanted to Bite me she so could of. And she would need an adjustment. I did misuse the word Obedience - She sortof knows how to heal, sit and down. But no manners. I believe she thinks she is the pack leader not her owner. Owner would have to give commands more than once for her to follow.

 

You said "I am so torn to see such a great dog turn out like this"

I believe that dogs like this are born this way.  Not a result of socialization but rather a genetic issue.  I will say though that if she were properly socialized at a young age that her issues may be less so but still an issue in certian situations.

I would wonder what is it that the owner wants to acomplish? 

Does the dog respect the owner? 

Will the dog bite the owner?

My first reaction would have been to "hang" the dog.  I believe that the dog wanted to let you know that she just was not happy with you.  Doent want to deal with you or anyone, unless ofcourse you have "scooby snacks" asides from that she decided to test her "choppers".  If you kept going long enough it is probably that you would have gotten a real bite not a nip. 

Realizing that clients with these dog problems are fearful to use corrections, you may have to laydown the law with the client.  Just let them know what will happen if she tries this again.  The dog is "punking" you.  Deal with this quiclky.  Although it is a good way to loose clientel.

I am no stranger to using treats.  Years ago I use to deliver and pick up security dogs.  these were not strong dogs.  More like descrtbed above insecure , dominate, dangerous.  I had to be careful how I handled the dogs.  for example if the dog was off leash and it was time to take the dog to the van, you had to just grab the leash quickley and start walking.  If you were to look at the dog, slowly grab the leash without attitude, guarenteed you would get bitten.  Also the van had a door that would get stuck at times.  One time in particular one Rott growled at me the the rest followed her direction.  I always kept hotdogs in my pocket for a situation like this.  Iwas able to distract the dogs with the hotdogs while i got the door unstuck.  This did not fix anythink but it is as they say like "putting lipstick on a pig"

Another thing we would do is to put 2 choke collars on the dog and a leash on each choke collar.  Then 2 people standing on opposite sides holds a leash.  They can give slack to the dog or take slack away.  All the while you safely bark commands.  In addition you can use a stationary pole inplace of one person, with a leash on the ploe.

You have to move with a natural sureness and have a calmness and confidence to yourself.  If you literally halfstep towards her or hesitate before grabing the leash or giving a command, it may be the anicedent to a bite.

Also I dont think that you worked with the dog enough sessions to take the muzzle off.  In addition she should have a wire muzzle not a cloth muzzle on.  Not sure what type you are using

Thanks for your comments..

@Jeff - Yes I had a leash and collar on her. No, I have no experience working with this type of behavior. I did correct her after her second attempt. Then we took another 10 paces and I handed her over to her owner where she immediately upon return went to barking and growling at me.

@alphapup - I agree with you thoughts on her. and if she wanted to bite me she so could have. I did misuse the work Obedience - She sort of knows sit, heal, down - although owner had to give command more than once.

I think this dog believes and probably is her pack leader not her owner. I didn't find her crazy in mind. I guess that's why I keep thinking about it and posted on here rather than walk away thinking she is a lost cause. I have the possibility to get this dog. Should I - I guess is the question? what would you do? How much work everyday would in your opinion need to be invested. Could she ever be able to walk in a mall or at a training field etc. Could she ever be trusted around our family?

questions , questions ... because ... there is more than one issue you have to address. 1. how experienced are YOU  ?? you would have to implement those things i previuosly dfiscussed .. Now .. it is not what i hear or seee in life , but what i do not hear and see that i am tuned to : you handed  the leash back to the owner .. SO - why did the dog act like that and what happend during and after that exhibit of that behavior .. e.g if ever one of my dogs acted like that , faster than it can  blink .. i not react but respond , " down" - " stop it". what did the owner do.. this gives me the impression if 1. can  you manage the dog - adjust the dog to paying heed to you then .. and even then ....  2. that behavior you just wrote of,  is what you can expect too , if you don't  address that type of behavior to people other than yourself - strangeres to you or your family .. can you channel that , address that issue too ? 3. could you get a dog like that to walk etc.  .. with the proper handling and interacting .. i would say yes.. [ but - you have to know what to do , be able to do it]..now re: - trust ... i would say ... that is something that you can only comment on as in better assessing the dog and/or to what degree  you change the dog or it changes itself .. my answer would be on  that note .. maybe ... maybe not ... BTW .. even with the BEST TRAINED dog, Best Temperament in a dog .. i would advocate the dog is always supervised around young people or children !!- that is just a given fundamental !!

What you discribe sounds to me like a strong minded 8 to 12 week pup in an adult's body. Was this dog ever taught not to nip and bite as a youngster? Was it let to run with its mama (assuming she is "save") to learn to be polite? Was it ever given better things (tugs and toys) as alternatives? Interesting issues that this dog has - including an overly premissive owner - too bad for the dog.

If you don't have a whole lot of experience, find a trainer or behaviorist who can make the determination for you. Ask local clubs for referrals and sellect wisely. This issue doesn't seem like something that can be fixed with an alpha roll and rough handling.

If they are able to teach this dog to be less mouthy (whether by habbit or domination) and can work with it in social settings, then they can train you. This will cost you time and money and there are no guarantees. Or better yet, there are PLENTY of dogs on the market that do not have any "issues", find one of theses instead.

I apologize for the double posting - Thought I hit cancel instead.

I appreicate everyones comments -

@troublelinx - She had a leather muzzle and you are right, I should of keep it on. I do believe the owner is fearful of corrections.

@ alphapup - When I handed the leash to the owner she started walking her back to her kennel. I was alittle behind the dog. I'm not sure what set her off. I started walking in the same direction - she didn't want me to follow??? Idk. The owner told her to stop it but she didn't even after repeated commands.

@ sitasmom - I would have to agree - I don't think this dog was ever taught those thing. And as much as I would like to try and help the dog, I probably couldn't make the time that would be needed.

Thank everyone for your comments - I guess I should just let it go. It is such a shame. :( - Maybe one day when I have had more experience under my belt and am set up to take on such a project.

I am going to the training field tonight... Will ask around but anyone on here know of someone in the central Florida area that has experience with this. I would like to get in touch with them.
Thanks