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by tiffae89 on 16 July 2011 - 04:07
Please I mostly understand genetics so I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around something...
A person I know has what I would consider a Bi-Color, gorgeous dog, but has tan markings that when you don't pay attention you cant really tell they are there. She said that he is still considered a Black and the tan markings are something called "Bleeding through?"
Genetically this term does not make since. A Black is a Black no tan marking period. This is due to Black being a homozygous recessive trait.
Now could she be confusing what she considers "bleeding through" as a certain level of genetic penetrance being involved or am I misunderstanding what this is?
I wouldn't ask if I understood fully but like I said I have never heard of this term and thus need to wrap my head around it...
Also: on Bi-Colors
Why are people claiming that their dogs are bi-colors when they themselves do not produce bi color? From my understanding a bi-color can only produce bi color and black (if and only if the dog carries the black recessive and if and only if bred with another dog that carries the black recessive.) The dominate gene would be expressed by the bi color dog, for the easiness of conversation lets say both are homozygous, thus if bred to another bi color dog they should, by deduction produce only bi color dogs which would also be homozygous.
If I am wrong please correct me as I'm really trying to wrap my head from that. From what I understand the agouti series is
-From Dominate to Recessive
-Sable (most dominate)
-Black and Tan (Red is carried by a Pigment gene)
-Bi Color
-Black (being the homozygous recessive)
Thank you so much in advance for your help. :D
A person I know has what I would consider a Bi-Color, gorgeous dog, but has tan markings that when you don't pay attention you cant really tell they are there. She said that he is still considered a Black and the tan markings are something called "Bleeding through?"
Genetically this term does not make since. A Black is a Black no tan marking period. This is due to Black being a homozygous recessive trait.
Now could she be confusing what she considers "bleeding through" as a certain level of genetic penetrance being involved or am I misunderstanding what this is?
I wouldn't ask if I understood fully but like I said I have never heard of this term and thus need to wrap my head around it...
Also: on Bi-Colors
Why are people claiming that their dogs are bi-colors when they themselves do not produce bi color? From my understanding a bi-color can only produce bi color and black (if and only if the dog carries the black recessive and if and only if bred with another dog that carries the black recessive.) The dominate gene would be expressed by the bi color dog, for the easiness of conversation lets say both are homozygous, thus if bred to another bi color dog they should, by deduction produce only bi color dogs which would also be homozygous.
If I am wrong please correct me as I'm really trying to wrap my head from that. From what I understand the agouti series is
-From Dominate to Recessive
-Sable (most dominate)
-Black and Tan (Red is carried by a Pigment gene)
-Bi Color
-Black (being the homozygous recessive)
Thank you so much in advance for your help. :D
by BlackthornGSD on 16 July 2011 - 04:07
Does the "black" dog have tan bleed through on chest and face? If so, it's a bicolor.
Black dogs in the GSD are usually black from the recessive black gene, which is different from teh gene that makes black dogs in most dogs--it seems to act somewhat as a masking gene--you can often tell the presence of the black recessive gene because it has a modifying effect (makes sables darker, makes black and tans into blanket backs usually).
Because of the way this black gene works, we do sometimes see genetically black GSDs who have a lot of bleed through on the legs.
If a dog is bicolor and bred to a sables, you will obviously get some sables. Depending on what other color gene the sable has, you can also get blacks, bicolors, or blanket backs.
A bicolor bred to a black-tan/black-tan dog can produce all blanket backs.
A bicolor bred to a blanket back dog can produce blanket backs, bicolors, and blacks.
A bicolor bred to a bicolor can produce "bright" bicolors and dark bicolors and blacks.
A bicolor bred to a black can produce bicolors and blacks.
That is based on my observations and experiences.
You may not get all possible colors in any one litter, of course--just luck as to how that falls out.
Christine
Black dogs in the GSD are usually black from the recessive black gene, which is different from teh gene that makes black dogs in most dogs--it seems to act somewhat as a masking gene--you can often tell the presence of the black recessive gene because it has a modifying effect (makes sables darker, makes black and tans into blanket backs usually).
Because of the way this black gene works, we do sometimes see genetically black GSDs who have a lot of bleed through on the legs.
If a dog is bicolor and bred to a sables, you will obviously get some sables. Depending on what other color gene the sable has, you can also get blacks, bicolors, or blanket backs.
A bicolor bred to a black-tan/black-tan dog can produce all blanket backs.
A bicolor bred to a blanket back dog can produce blanket backs, bicolors, and blacks.
A bicolor bred to a bicolor can produce "bright" bicolors and dark bicolors and blacks.
A bicolor bred to a black can produce bicolors and blacks.
That is based on my observations and experiences.
You may not get all possible colors in any one litter, of course--just luck as to how that falls out.
Christine
by tiffae89 on 16 July 2011 - 09:07
"Does the "black" dog have tan bleed through on chest and face? If so, it's a bicolor."
No, however that doesn't make since. If he is truely a black dog WHY would he have any of this "bleed through"? What genetically causes it.
"Black dogs in the GSD are usually black from the recessive black gene, which is different from teh gene that makes black dogs in most dogs--it seems to act somewhat as a masking gene--you can often tell the presence of the black recessive gene because it has a modifying effect (makes sables darker, makes black and tans into blanket backs usually)."
I understand that a Black dog is only black due to a homozygous recessive gene. I think here, where you say it "seems to act somewhat as a masking gene" is what I mean by genetic penetrence. I.E the dominate gene is expressed while the recessive gene penetrates slightly. Meaning Bi-Colors with the Black Recessive will seem almost black and Sable with the Black Recessive will have a Dark, if not black look to them. The same thing happens with a B&T recessive with Sable dogs, not always true in all cases, but you can see a slight pattern with the recessive trait penetrating through the dominate trait. Bi-Color in itself is its own Agouti gene, right?
"Because of the way this black gene works, we do sometimes see genetically black GSDs who have a lot of bleed through on the legs."
What is "bleed through"? What is the genetic reason for it? Again from what I understand the only way to get a black is through a homozygous recessive trait. Thus No tan should EVER pop up. If it does then the dominate gene by default would be bi-color with a black recessive please correct me if I am wrong. Again, trying to wrap my head around it. It just doesn't add up.
For the color combinations you mentioned. If a bi-color is bred to a sable yes you will end up with Sables due to that being the dominating trait. However just as the Sable can help determine what you get so can the bi-color depending on wether or not it has the Black Recessive trait. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
For instance:
A bi-color with black recessive bred to a Sable with the B&T recessive will produce:
Sables with the Bi-Color Recessive
Sables with the Black Recessive
Black and Tans with the Bi-Color Recessive
and Black and Tans with the Black Recessive.
As such a Sable with the Black and Tan Recessive bred to a Sable with the Black Recessive will produce:
Sables with the Black Recessive
Homozygous Sables
Sables with the Black and Tan Recessive
Black and Tan with the Black Recessive
The intensity of a color, pigment etc, is carried by other genes right? Meaning that the colors expressed carry the dominating intensity series of genes?
For instance: A Black and Red dog compaired to a Black and Tan dog. Both share the Agouti gene but the pigment expressed is different.
I am also going back and looking at other posts where bleed through pops up and have yet to see an explination. It seems to be a term that someone made up when their dog had tan pop up as it got older.
I greatly appreciate your help in trying to help me figure this out... :D
No, however that doesn't make since. If he is truely a black dog WHY would he have any of this "bleed through"? What genetically causes it.
"Black dogs in the GSD are usually black from the recessive black gene, which is different from teh gene that makes black dogs in most dogs--it seems to act somewhat as a masking gene--you can often tell the presence of the black recessive gene because it has a modifying effect (makes sables darker, makes black and tans into blanket backs usually)."
I understand that a Black dog is only black due to a homozygous recessive gene. I think here, where you say it "seems to act somewhat as a masking gene" is what I mean by genetic penetrence. I.E the dominate gene is expressed while the recessive gene penetrates slightly. Meaning Bi-Colors with the Black Recessive will seem almost black and Sable with the Black Recessive will have a Dark, if not black look to them. The same thing happens with a B&T recessive with Sable dogs, not always true in all cases, but you can see a slight pattern with the recessive trait penetrating through the dominate trait. Bi-Color in itself is its own Agouti gene, right?
"Because of the way this black gene works, we do sometimes see genetically black GSDs who have a lot of bleed through on the legs."
What is "bleed through"? What is the genetic reason for it? Again from what I understand the only way to get a black is through a homozygous recessive trait. Thus No tan should EVER pop up. If it does then the dominate gene by default would be bi-color with a black recessive please correct me if I am wrong. Again, trying to wrap my head around it. It just doesn't add up.
For the color combinations you mentioned. If a bi-color is bred to a sable yes you will end up with Sables due to that being the dominating trait. However just as the Sable can help determine what you get so can the bi-color depending on wether or not it has the Black Recessive trait. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
For instance:
A bi-color with black recessive bred to a Sable with the B&T recessive will produce:
Sables with the Bi-Color Recessive
Sables with the Black Recessive
Black and Tans with the Bi-Color Recessive
and Black and Tans with the Black Recessive.
As such a Sable with the Black and Tan Recessive bred to a Sable with the Black Recessive will produce:
Sables with the Black Recessive
Homozygous Sables
Sables with the Black and Tan Recessive
Black and Tan with the Black Recessive
The intensity of a color, pigment etc, is carried by other genes right? Meaning that the colors expressed carry the dominating intensity series of genes?
For instance: A Black and Red dog compaired to a Black and Tan dog. Both share the Agouti gene but the pigment expressed is different.
I am also going back and looking at other posts where bleed through pops up and have yet to see an explination. It seems to be a term that someone made up when their dog had tan pop up as it got older.
I greatly appreciate your help in trying to help me figure this out... :D
by Siantha on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
well something that would screw up your hole charts..... the male of these puppies is a black sable who has sables and blacks and i think 1 bi-color in his pedigree. the mother is a creme sable who has black n tan white and sable.
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all of these puppies are from this litter. there where 10 puppies in the litter 2 light/red sables, 3 sables that have alot of patterning 1 dark sable, 1 bi-color, 4 black and browns
i too have heard someone say o my dogs are blacks. i currently have a pure black at my house. there is no pigment change anywhere in the toes legs tail butt head he is solid black. the person i spoke of her dogs have tan inbetween their toes and they are still concidered black not bi ? i would feel Any coloration becides black on a black dog would make them bi
all of these puppies are from this litter. there where 10 puppies in the litter 2 light/red sables, 3 sables that have alot of patterning 1 dark sable, 1 bi-color, 4 black and browns
i too have heard someone say o my dogs are blacks. i currently have a pure black at my house. there is no pigment change anywhere in the toes legs tail butt head he is solid black. the person i spoke of her dogs have tan inbetween their toes and they are still concidered black not bi ? i would feel Any coloration becides black on a black dog would make them bi
by myret on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
does he look like this he is almost all black but has a litle tan on his legs this one to
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=333589
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=333589
Dont know if they are called black or bicolor
beutiful dogs though
by Ibrahim on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
This is the dog Myret posted it's pedigree
by myret on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
yes Ibrahim
by Ibrahim on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
I think this thread is becoming more interesting 
by myret on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
Ibrahim
can you get a fotograph of the other dog I linked to
can you get a fotograph of the other dog I linked to
by tiffae89 on 16 July 2011 - 13:07
Yes the dog resembles that
As for the puppies, the model still goes. The Sables can carry the Black and Tan, Black, and homozygous Sable. The "bi color" dog is actually a black and tan that may carry the black recessive.
Making sure I have it right Dad is Sable with the black recessive Mom is Sable with the Black and Tan recessive? Pigment is carried by an entire different set of genes right?
I am posting from my phone so please bear with me.
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