opinions on breeding to non-schutzhund "working" bitches - Page 1

I am not a breeder, etc, but I was wondering what those that have more expirience thought.  I was just curious about peoples opinions on breeding a stud to non-schutzhund titled dogs.  For instance, say the person did a ton of SAR or agility, would you consider breeding?  How do you think this practice has affected the breed?  Do you think you get a good picture of the dogs character if it is not doing schutzhund?  If you do consider breeding to a dog that isnt titled in schutzhund but has done something else- say it has rally titles or AKC OB, do you do any extra tests on temperment, suitability,etc?   For my example I was interested in breeding a nice stud, no lines in particular, just something like a Sch3, KK1 working line male.   Thanks for the input! 

 Each dog being bred has to be evaluated at each breeding to it,s breeding partner. I want to see the dog work before I read the paper written about it. Titles are a starting point only. I,d make more out of health,back ground and hip and elbows either Ofa or Penn hipp and even at that I,d like to see fresh xrays and do some back ground checking on siblings,parents,grandparents, ect... There are more important things then the opinion colum on the dog. IMHO.

Aside from health clearances etc... if the dog is REALLY working, like certified FEMA dog, SAR, certified K9 then heck yeah
I would do it, provided the dogs seem to be a good match. Schutzhund is not the deciding factor for me and I would RATHER see the dog doing
real work in the real world because THAT, IMO is more of a test of the dogs' nerves and character then what is accomplished on the field. Now
if the dog does BOTH, then that is just icing on the cake.

.02

Melissa

I would not be afraid to pair a dog without schh titles, but I'm obviously the dog checked for hip dysplasia and albuedyplasi and no one has allergies, then I am very interested in the dog's instincts natural drive I would like to see the dog work , but it must not lack drive, lots of  keen spirit to work so I would not worry and of course, the pedigree and also <

I agree, Schutzhund is not the be all end all, in fact even in Germany a herding title counts for the purposes of breeding, I believe. Clearly health screenings are important, however I don't know that I would re do xrays, because there is a difference between dysplasia that is genetic and wear and tear due to work. Check a police k9 after 3 or 4 years of training and work and there will be a difference between entry level x rays and current x rays.

What breeding to a non schutzhund titled dog does is make you develop some measure of what you are trying to bring out in the breeding. How do you determine the qualities that are character or work related as opposed to the conformation qualities? If strong OB is what you seek, then a high scoring CD or CDX may fit the bill, but you have no indication as to ability for scent work tracking would give you a glimpse of. So, can you hide their toy in a cabinet or grill of a car and them try to get to it. If so, then you still have scent work capability. If you can come up with a fair measuring stick for your qualities, then you are way ahead of most breeders.

Hello to all:  Genetics of the dog does not change with titles;  however, more importantly I would want all possible health cerf's/checks done on both to even consider breeding.  Nan

I don't have a problem to breed to a farm working dog, they have a job. My females are titled, not titling my dogs just shows my laziness... LOL
 That is my personal preference to title my dogs, I rather do that than find million excuses as why not. I have the option to either do something with my dog or talk about not doing something with my dog.


Then I can sleep because besides my dog having pretty good life, they have twice a week activity that not only builds their confidence and gives them something to do but it also builds our relationship. It introduces me all the good and bad things about my dogs, the shortcomings and the fantastic traits they inherited.  I chose Schutz, but I don't oppose to people who enjoy AKC, herding and other activities. Hell, flyball and agility is awesome as long as the people have fun with their dogs. As I said, giving dog something to do, besides entertaining the owner.. is only plus in the whole package : handler and the dog!

That all depends if you are a true believer in the original goals set by Rittmeister von Stephanitz.
Growing up in Germany there was never a question and I still agree today that Schutzhund/IPO titles, Koerung (breed survey) and clear health certificates (Hip, elbows etc) are absolutely necessary for both breeding partners.
In my opinion that is the only way to maintain a healthy breed with strength, strong nerves, suitable in the greatest variety of working dog jobs.

oh...and refering to Nans GSD with all respect : As we know from Darwin, survival of the fittest....you can only inherit strong nerves, health and workability if your ancestors had it and that includes the dog's closed ancestors. So if puppy's parents and grand-parents didn't make it to a SchH III, chances are puppy will probably not going to make it there either...
and if people (and I don't mean you personally) are too lazy to work with their dogs to achieve a title, that doesn't mean the dog can do it anytime with another handler.
Genetic makeup changes...if we don't train the dogs anymore their progeny will become less and less able to work.

 T Tails: I've often wondered about the accuracy of this based on the belief that each parent carries two sets of genes, at least I think that is correct. Also, I don't know what determines "nerve" in a dog. Does that mean that any level of training and/or abuse can be tolerated and the dog will remain strong in the face of those circumstances? I don't know much about schutzhund so I have no idea how heavy handed a trainer gets with his dog. I do have 2 dogs that were started in schutzhund. The first dog I was told was being sold off because he got where he didn't want to play the game; he was "out for blood". The second, a bitch, I have no idea. "Opening up kennel space" was the reason I got. Both were right at a year old when I got them. Both had a notable lack of confidence. The first got aggressive with me within the first week I had him until we straightened that out on the spot. No issues since. The other just had no social skills. Does that mean these two dogs lack nerve?