Won't engage on tug with strangers - Page 1

Has anyone encountered and remedied a problem with a 12 month working line GSD who presents excellent drive and tug work with the handler in play but will not engage on the tug with a stranger???. What happened, the handler had the leash and was attempting a back tie situation with a stranger or helper enticing the dog to bite the tug but couldn't generate any prey drive in the dog to take a bite, dog just stood there stationary. When the helper took the leash and the handler (owner) faced the dog with the tug, perfect, launched into the pillow good strong deep bite as normal. Swapped positions again, dog wasn't interested taking a bite from the helper.


The helper moved in at the dog a little, hackled up barking with tail curled up over his back, seemed a defensive bark but tail carriage confident but wouldn't engage on the tug or chase it. The dog had never played with anyone except the handler at that stage and wondering if anyone had any suggestions to offer please???.

 

Rexy,
Sure, I have seen this.  It is not unusual but takes patience and trial and error to fix.  If the dog works for the handler, I will switch spots as you did.  I will take the leash and get the handler to get the dog to bite the tug.  First I would put the tug on a long line and try to get the dog to bite by throwing the tug to the dog from a distance.  It sounds that the proximity of the helper may be a problem.  Some dogs that are more defensive, confused or a little insecure (hackles up are a big sign) won't go into prey drive with a stranger.  I will have the handler give the dog a bite and get the dog comfortable and play tug with the dog.  When the dog is comfortable I will have the handler pass me the line the tug or bite pillow is attached too.  I will then keep pressure on the tug and begin to work the dog.  If you can transfer the tug/bite pillow to the decoy you might get the dog to work. 

I would say this all has to be done in prey, no eye contact from the decoy, sideways posture and a long line to keep the decoy out of the equation.  Make sure you are reading the dog's body language correctly.  It seems the dog was keying on the decoy and then will not take the tug.  The hackles are a little bit of an issue for me, it is not a sign of confidence, IME.  The dog may be confused, insecure or both.  It could also be the approach of the decoy changing the whole picture for the dog and the dog not knowing how to react.


JMO FWIW,

Jim

Thank you Jim, very much appreciated.

We will try what you suggested tomorrow. I thought the dog was a bit insecure with a defensive type bark, hackles up on his neck, but tail straight up curled towards his back. I am not sure of the tail relevence, although my dog will tuck his tail also if a bit insecure of something???. The dog is a fanatic on the pillow and very driven for the handler and was quite a shock he just stood there and didn't move. He barked when the helper moved in waving the pillow a couple of feet away from him to try and initiate some prey drive. 

slamdunk, with all due respect to you and the owner. sounds to me ,at a year old, he may have weak nerves. this does not take him out of sport work.
i am not in any way throwing off on the dogh. he is going to have to be handled carefully.
 have you tried the bite box? i would put him in it and have the decoy just get him barking and run away at the bark. end the session on the run away maby even chasing the decoy all the way to the kennel or crate. this will build up a not so secure dog.
 do this as long as it takes and watch the dog mature right before your eyes.

hold dog on leash and let him watch the other dogs play with tugs that the helper offers. if your dog gets shows interested and gets excited, its turn is next........ someitmes watching and a bit of frustration helps.

Is it possible that the dog was not socialised when younger to play with other people in a tug type game and now only trusts playing with his own handler?

I agree with sable59 first approach but not necessary in a bite box.  The handler with a 6-8 feet line with the helper working on developing prey in and out of the blind.  Then moving on to Jim's suggestion.

also think not too strong nerves , you will see that  type of thing more , dog will bite in a safe , well known enviroment , but as soon as enviromental changes occur , insecurety takes over

what I would do in this case is , put a long (tracking 30 feet) line on the pillow , start playing with the dog with your decoy present , let the dog bite the pillow , if he has a good bite let him counter , if he gives 2 or three good pulls let him win and carry , but hold on to the long line

 if he gets away about 12 feet or so start pulling the line bring him in back to you

repeat this till he does this with great pleasure and you can get him at full line length and back to you , allways with the decoy nearby


if this is working well do it again , and if the dog is at full line length , give the end of the line to the decoy , and let him bring the dog in
not directly totally towards the decoy , but let him keep distance , and shorten the distance every session  till he is where he should be

this whole process may take a few weeks , but better slow than sorry

Some excellent suggestions we will try, the advice is much appreciated.

It's been suggested regarding the insecurity that the bloodlines of this dog mature late and will result in reasonably high levels of civil drive as the dog matures where in maturity the insecurity will switch into active aggression???. We were told some ancestors in that bloodline were a bit insecure until 18 months old. The protection phase in these dogs spoken of in bitework is very good, although they appear a little on the sharp side and too reactive perhaps to be handled easily in a sporting environment???. Sharpness and fast light up's in aggression at little provocation is a popular trait in many Australian working GSD breedings and wondering how that trait manifests during the dog's maturing process???.     

 IT HAS BEEN MY HUMBLE EXPERIENCE WORKING AND TRAINING MY DOGS,WHO HAVE NO NERVE PROBLEMS,WHEN I USE THE BOX AND TIE OUTS IT ENCOURAGE MY PUPS . THEY CAN WATCH THE PUP IN THE BOX  AS I AM  WORKING  WITH THE ONE IN THE BOX. AT THE SAME TIME I COME AROUND AND FAKE A BITE TO  THE PUPS TIED OUT. THIS FRUISTRATES THEM AND ENCOURAGES THEM TO BITE EARLIER. HERE IS A SHORT VIDEO OF A 5 MONTH OLD PUP IN THE BITE BOX. THIS DOG IS NOW WORKING IN CANADA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mio69ttkLC0