Somber thoughts - Page 1

and certify I'm trying to look at the "big" picture here, so bear with me. I would love some feedback also. Some of these questions/subjects might have been presented in the past but please bear with me and possibly comment. 

Here's my dilemma; and hopefully I'm not jumping too much across the board so that you can not understand. Came back from the vet today with my two females. Ana, will be 2 yoa in April. Goal is to have her certified explosives in spring. But overall goal is to breed her and Bella, (5 mos.when able) and keep majority of pups to train and certify and keep in house. Partner with my bud who,  his preference is Mals. I'm no breeder and my situation at the moment is definitely in the beginning stages, (baby steps so to speak) What is beginning to appear/unfold before me I must think the breeders out there have already encountered, and to some degree navigated through, (I guess for business purposes etc.) experience, trial and error and repeat and so forth. Hopefully I'm making sense. First priority is to establish a foundation for me. Not to just go out and start selling. I pretty much walk a straight line and do the right thing pretty much always. 

Okay... breeding shouldn't take place till 2 yoa? And OFA (Penn-Hip?) should be in place to warrant the breeding. A RESPONSIBLE breeder wont breed if OFA is bad. But doesn't/won't spay or neuter if not being bred. It's like a 50/50 crap shoot. You're waiting the two years anticipating, planning, lining up your dogs/lineage and there is the chance that it won't/can't/shouldn't happen! And if it doesn't, then you have to buy another female and wait all over? Or buy multiple females?

I don't usually fret till I know exactly, (don't waste unnecessary energy and emotions etc;) Can't remember the verbage; but there was some "something" in Anas' R hip and we'll know more when we do the Xrays. But OFA doesn't take place till 2 yrs. Correct? I could have prelims done but that will either tell me there's no need for OFA or we'll need to do OFA and wait for the outcome? Maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse this time, (don't usually) but I'm a preplanner and trying to put things in order, especially, when we are talking years is a little frustrating. Now if I am stepping into someone Else's world then understand this is my first. Not saying I am doing it just thinking out loud PROS/CONS. Don't beat me up and throw me to the wolves/lions. I'm just thinking out loud. 

IF Ana's hip(s) is/are bad and she was still bred isn't there a chance the puppies would have no problems? And If I kept all or most pups for me to certify for me and they stay in house wouldn't that be acceptable? Or if  by chance I did sell some to sell them at a reduced price? The big picture here is to have my own service dogs for contract work where I don't have to buy/pay an outrageous price for a dog or dogs. They are mine. I raise them and I know them from day one. If I used the wrong verbage or example then redirect my thought in the right direction. 

Bottom line is there is no definitive negative/bad information on her hips at this time. Everything will be known when the Crays take place. But I'm searching for information. Hopefully this much makes sense. Thanks, and not saying those I haven't mentioned are not knowledgeable because I'm sure there are plenty that are. But I'm interested in the thoughts of Rik, Heidie, Prague and Jenni (forgot your author spelling and if I leave to search it I'll lose what I'v typed) but you know who you are. I'm not looking for a pissing contest amongst us. Just looking fo

Gees, Can't get in my own thread! Sixth time typing. Beginning of thread above.......I went to the vets today, for check ups on Ana and bella. vet said there was some "can't remember the verbage" in Anas' R hip. Will have to have xrays before thinking of breeding. Immediate goal is to certify Ana and bella for explosives in spring. Overall big picture goal is to breed Ana and bella, keep all or most of the pups. Train them and certify them for explosives that way I don't have to sub-contract another company or individual.

At the end of thread above: Hodie, prager. I'm looking for information, some answers and some feedback. Thank you.

Unfortunately you have to put these two together. Something is up with the system. Don't know if it's the storm or what.

You also have the option of doing Ana's films now and having them sent to the SV for the 'a' stamp (can be done @ 12 months, via either USchA or GSDCA-WDA), or having PennHIP done now, instead of waiting until Ana's 24 months.

Re your speculation as to breeding Ana even in the event her hips aren't sound, since your plans are to keep all of the pups anyway: Yes, you're right that just because Ana's hips weren't sound it didn't mean her pups would necessarily have the same issue--hip dysplasia is a polygenic trait, meaning there isn't one specific gene that's responsible for whether or not the hips are sound, so the pups could get lucky and all have normal hips.  BUT--what if the entire litter not only had bad hips, but they were SO bad that the dogs weren't suitable for the work you had in mind for them?  That's a possibility, too, and while it could also happen if both parents were sound, it's less likely if you can stack the deck a bit in your favor by selecting breeding candidates that have a strong history of good hips behind them on both sides, and whose siblings were also sound.   I'm not sure of the exact nature of the work you need them to do, but I have to believe that you're only going to need to deploy them to detect explosives in locations that are always going to be friendly to a dog that's developing arthritis in ill-formed joints; surely there will be times when the dogs will need to climb or crawl, or will be working in rough terrain...and I wouldn't want my safety to rest on the search efforts of a dog that's in pain while trying to work, personally.

Yeah, it sucks that if both Ana and Bella were to come up dysplastic, you're back to square one, and have to decide if you want to go the same route again, or reduce your risk and purchase a green bitch that's old enough to have had her hips certified...There's a reason why a lot of people start out with an older, proven bitch as their foundation brood bitch, and then build their kennel from there--puppies are just too much of a crap shoot to set as the cornerstone of a business upon.

Hopefully, the 'can't remember verbage' was something like 'possible laxity' or 'slight luxation', both of which can be nothing of consequence., and you're worrying for no reason.  :)

I believe the verbage was "laxity". While the vet had pulled on Ana's R leg, back and elongated/stretched?  and extended the leg out, Ana wanted to "retract" ? the leg back in. not liking the ? extension. Bella is from a different line.

And, like I said; I'm fretting over nothing at this time. If the situation is not a favorable one I know I will do the right thing. Thanks.

 While you're waiting on hip results, it won't hurt to supplement your dogs with ester C.   Read this article about a study that was done by a vet with gsds that had HD and he supplemented them with ester C during the pregnancy and lactation, then supplemented the pups.  None of the pups had HD.  Here'e the article:  http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0039.htm .  Good luck!

How old was Anna when the vet checked her and how close to a heat cycle was she?

I had a puppy at 8 months who prlimed as mild, - lasxity, and at 2 years she certified as good. The x-rays were taken about 3 days before she started her heat cycle.

http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html  this might help..........

qqturner,
Interesting article, thank you. 

SitasMom,
Yesterday, (01/11/11) we were at the vets. Ana is 20 mos old and her heat will be in April. Thanks for the article. 

Also, to reiterate.... Haven't had any xrays taken yet at this time. Just getting everything in order. 

Reading hexes' comment, gives me an option I was unaware of. I was thinking that if I had to wait for xrays at (exactly) two years I would then miss this heat and have to wait another 6 mos. My male, Reiker, will be 9 yoa in March and I would like the "deed" to be natural  but have to make sure he is viable. I have also been researching on reproductive specialists.......... with so-so luck. Not sure if his time is running out. Personally, I don't think so and there was a thread a while back where someone just had a litter and the male was 9 yoa.

 

 If the male has been bred before you should have little problems with the actual breeding. His sperm count "might" be low. That is about all I have seen with older males, and only occasionally.

If it is just one hip, that might be something that happened when in the whelping box. There is a chance of that. I would just go get the x rays and quit torturing yourself. If one hip is good, and the other has a problem, I am not sure that it is genetic. 

PLUS, you are keeping all the pups, so you are only responsible to yourself. If they go to work in a governmental dept. it is unlikely that they will be bred anyway.

I personally do not think that one hip is a genetic problem, so with that, as well as you are not selling pups I would go and get the x-ray and do the breeding if it is not some crazy problem. You said some thing about the dog not wanting the leg extended, but I have known enough dogs that have a problem with people doing stuff like that that had no hip problems to say that I would not find a test like that as anything worth something.

Go get the x ray, and stop worrying about if the bitch is two.

Thank you qqturner, for the article about Ester-C.

I have recently switched EVERYBODY over to a completely raw diet, and I have been giving some of my dogs Ester-C.

Hello Alboe2009,
  I do as many health tests on all my dogs as I possibably can, OFA isn't the only organization that can read hips, like someone said, try going through SV, then you're not waiting 24 months.

All the health checks I do I weigh one with the other, meaning my dogs, I eventually would like to have PERFECT>hips, elbows, hearts, eyes, thyroids, no one be a carrier of DM, and the best temperaments in the world.

The world is not perfect, my dogs are not perfect, BUT, I also breed Labrador Retrievers, and I have gone to the same kennel since 1998 and used their stud dogs, and I am finding that after 6 generations of checking hips, elbows and eyes, and picking only the easiest to train pups that it's getting a lot more predictable and I have a nice clean bloodline of labs, plus the kennel I go to have been doing their own health checks for generations, so they did most of my work.

I saw someone advertising on the AKC web-site a litter of pup and the sire had Elbow Dysplasia Grade 3 I wondered why someone would breed a dog with grade 3 ED, and I did see the sire had many titles to his name, is that their reason, and breeding that sire with a bitch that has normal elbows, is that the answer?......... 

So bottom line, think of all the health tests as a basis of which to plan a litter!
Weigh your decisions carefully.

Thanks everyone................. keep them coming.