Tail chasing & E Collar - Page 1

I have an 11 month old working line GSD who's begun to chase his tail when excited in anticipation of something pleasurable. He had never been a tail chaser as a younger pup and the first time the behaviour surfaced was a month ago (10 months of age) when he saw me with his leash anticipating a walk. He jumped around yapping for a few seconds then suddenly went into tail chasing spin. Obviously the behaviour doesn't  need to escalate and were advised to use an Ecollar as the best method to eliminate the behaviour???.

The problem I have using the E Collar (Dogtra 1900 NCP) is that a stimulation sends the dog from excitement into aggression with the opposite effect to submission or avoidance which the E Collar is intended to achieve. A high level nick at the point where the dog is about to spin makes the situation worse sending him into a fast aggressive spin biting at his tail and doesn't interrupt the behaviour. Same occurs if the spin is in progress where the dog will power through a level 100 on the Dogtra in constant with intense aggression. It appears the aversion of a collar stimulation raises drive, although I haven't provided a full level stimulation at 127, but to date an E Collar stimulation has no other effect than raising drive, neither does it cause any fear, submission or avoidence in this particular dog. Immediately following a high level stimulation, the dog behaves as if nothing has happened.   

My other two will shut down at half the level of stimulation this young one will endure and the purpose of my post is to ask the people knowledgable with E Collar use if they have experienced a dog reacting as mine does with stimulation or some advice if perhaps I am using the E Collar incorrectly in this instance.

Thanks in advance    

 

I would never use an e-collar to try and fix a potentially nervous or compulsive behavior.  You stand a very strong possibility of making it much, much worse.  Did an actual trainer tell you to do this? I don't put e-collars on puppies for anything, actually.

When you know he is going to get exciteted, give him something to do adn make it positive. If he gets nuts to see the leash and go for a walk, call him over to you, make him sit, maybe a down, reward him lavishly and make him stay while you clip the leash on. Then reward him some more. Give him something worthwhile to do.

An e-collar correction if for when a dog is doing something it should not. I would hazard a guess that your dog has no idea what he's doing is "wrong" or undesirable.

Hi Kczaja,

Two separate working dog trainers recommended the ECollar. What I did initially was use a tug toy or ball for the pup to focus on for reward in known situations that could result in tail chasing which prevented the behaviour providing I could focus him before the spinning began and was difficult at times to predict what would excite him enough to spin and therefore it happened on occasion.

I was advised to use an Ecollar on the basis that using toys was rewarding the behaviour and the pup would chase his tail for an attention seeking exercise. The trainers believed the tail chasing wasn't compulsive as a disorder as he doesn't show interest in his tail in a placid state???.

The E Collar training is making the situation worse where a stimulation causes aggression to bite at his tail and has caught it and made it bleed on a couple of occassions which raises more concern and the necessity to try and fix the problem.  

No one suggested incorporating obedience? There is a difference between that and just redirecting. If you "redirect' with a toy the dog learns, hey, I chase my tail, I get a toy, but if you try to beat him to punch with a sit, he learns, hey, I sit, I get a toy.

I too have experienced a high drive working line shepherd that would tail chase when excited for example over a high value meal, such as a lamb neck or when he wanted to play ball and it was not training or play time.  One thing that has helped is teaching him how to relax, and for this I have learned t touch and he has learned how to relax for that, which I do for him most evenings for a half hour or more.

He has also responded well to an e collar if I need to stop the behavior and can not do t touch at that time.  All he needed was one low level (45) stim and he now  lays down as if on cue when I reach for the collar.  I was reluctant to use it, but it has been helpful and I have not needed to increase the stim level.  He is 3+ years old and the problem is under control.  I sometimes go for weeks without putting the e collar on. Even after putting the collar on, I rarely need to use it

I agree, no e-collar for this problem, it will just escalate it as he is not learning a thing except being stimulated. 

I would go back to the basics - leave a leash attached to his regular flat collar or fur saver - let it drag.  when he stimulates into spinning, take the leash and calmly give him a firm pop on the line with a "NO" and "sit" - if he resumes spinning correct him for breaking the sit just as you would normally do (correct the disobedience) - release him when he is correct and calm, repeat if he resumes the behavior.  You will need to be ultra-vigilant until he understands that behavior is corrected and not allowed.  If he's doing this behavior "on his own" when you are not right there, then he will need to be crated when you are not with him, or tethered to you - much like housebreaking a puppy - his behavior needs to be modified and undesireable behavior needs to be "nipped in the bud" at the same time he learns what you do want him to do, and that he will be rewarded for "good behavior". 
make sure you reward good calm clear behavior with release, reward, or treats at first to keep the situation calmer than toys.  You can also redirect (after the correction for spinning) on a toy he can carry around - he can learn to get a toy and carry it around instead of spinning, focus on the toy not the tail.

good luck!

molly

Molly, I think that is the best explanation of how to deal with a dog that chases it's tail. I will forever remember my puppy who did that and ended badly.

I really hope that I never ever encounter a tail chaser again.

Rexy GOOD LUCK I hope that you have a great result for your puppy.

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I believed that I was on the right track intially until I was convinced from two very credible trainers that the E Collar was more effective.

One more word of advice about the e-collar.  Yes you can use the e-collar for this type of behavior modification correction - BUT you can't just stick the e-collar on him and push the button - the dog has no idea what it means - or what he is being corrected for.  So that's why the e-collar "stem" can stimulate and make the problem worse, rather than correcting the problem.

if you did decide to use the e-collar, then you have to TEACH the dog what the correction is for, why he is being corrected, and what he must to do stop the correction and receive a reward.

To do this, you should still leave the leash on the dog at first, if the dog starts to chase the tail, stem on a high enough level that he feels it and reacts to it - not high enough that he leaps into the air or vocalizes at all.  Too low if he doesn't react at all, too high if he reacts too much (startle reflex or vocalizing).  keep in mind at first there may be a "yip" from surprise - you have to know your dog to decide if the stem is too high or not and you must be ready to adjust the level as you go.

so, stem with continuous held down, while you at the same time give a firm leash correction to stop the behavior with a "NO".  The instant he stops, the stem stops too and he is rewarded (calm reward, treat or calm praise).  he spins, he gets continuous stem and leash correction to stop - he stops, the stem immediately stops too.  He learns that he is corrected for spinning, and he learns how to turn the stem off himself (by stopping).  when he understands this, then the leash correction can be removed and stem used only.

keep in mind also that dogs are not stupid - he will learn to know when the e-collar is off and when it is on (his neck).  that is also a good reason not to use it at all - leash correction and good timing with correction/reward should work if you are vigilant with supervising this behavior and stopping it, not allowing it to escalate into obsession.

molly

I would also agree with Molly and Kelly (Kczaja) on this.  I do not believe the ecollar used in this application is the right tool.  Especially, if it amps the dogs aggression level.  any pain induced correction, Ecollar or Prong for example can increase aggression and agitation in some dogs.  If this happens with your dog then the Ecollar is not going to work on  a high level.  There are ways to use a lower level stim to increase drive or in this case increase focus and change the behavior.  But this has to be done with OB and a high value reward.  Sounds to me like the dog needs some behavior modification and I wouldn't do this with pain induced corrections.  You need to take the dog out of it's frantic state and make it calm and focused. 

From your description the Ecollar is not the right tool.  Ob training, rewards and knowing the dogs body language and triggers will be key.  You need to be able to sense when the dog is just starting to think about spinning and becoming frantic and redirect then,  It might be an ear twtich or a tensing of the shoulder muscle and that is the time to step in, once the dog starts to spin it is much harder.  Stop the behavior just as the dog is beginning to think about it, before it starts. 

Who are these two trainers? 

Jim