No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation - Page 8

Hey There Again Feather!

First, I really thought that there was a very high likelyhood that you were just trolling from reading your initial post.  I honestly thought that you were being deliberately provocative just to see if you could get a response.  I see now that is not the case.  For the most part I think that people have been very kind and generous in their responses to you, given the content and tone of your initial post.  Please read it again and I think that you might agree with me.

I am not advanced in my dog training knowledge and skills, although I am 54 years old.  When you assault Yoshy on the basis of his age and imply that he lacks sufficient experience to offer any sound advice pertaining to dog training I find it somewhat incredible.  Having read a number of Yoshy's posts on this forum over the last few months I have little doubt that I wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of his knowledge and skills if I were able to.

There are a lot of people in this forum who deserve a lot of praise for their willingness to share their knowledge and experience with others.  Really, if you would stop and think about what some folks have offered to you in this thread that might be useful to your understanding, you might consider apologizing for your somewhat incindiary initial post and thank some people for their willingness to invite you to look deeper into the question of appropriate training techniques.

Peace,

SteveO

Still has no clue and not willing to learn.... what a shame.


Pack

Why someone would use 4 letter words in this public forum says alot more about the poster than it does the topic.  We must all examine the quality of the individual that is delivering the message.  The problem with this board now compared to when I first join is that everyone KNOWS EVERYTHING! Once upon a time ye of little knowledge sat back, watched, listened and learned.  Then when one possed a question, it was answered by someone of knowledge. 

No trainer worth their salt would use abusive techniques and call it training.  As some of you have already aptly stated, any training technique or device has potential for abuse.  I don't see a need for helicoptering a dog. 

I do know of a "difficult' dog that went thru training with a few police k9 handlers.  Finally no one wanted to deal with the dog and it was unsuitable to adopt out, so the dog was going to be put down.  This occurred in Europe and was explained to me by another police k9 handler / master trainer.  The dog had high nerve threshold, low pain threshold and was dominant.  All workable conditions by themselves but ugly when present together.  Basically if you gave the dog a correction it cam back at the handler.  The trainer had to establish dominance.  This type of work is not for the weak or faint of heart.  Once the pack order was understood the dog became a nice patrol dog.  But this dog was also short of memory.  Whenever the handler went away on holiday the pack order had to be reestablished.  I related this story because here is a dog that would have been put down if this last handler did not want to use easily misunderstood techniques to deal with this dog.

If you see something you are uncomfortable with, inquire before judging.  If you hear a story, leave it at that, just another story.  Too many folks want to jump to judgement w/o knowing what it is they are seeing.

And if you want to start flaming trainers how about using your real name.

Kyle

Well Feather, After reading your posts... I certainly hope YOU are NOT a trainer! And, IF you are, I cannot fathom that you are spewing such nonsense to people and making them pay for it! It is pretty obvious to almost everyone that has posted here that you are pretty much clueless when it comes to training, not to mention how to read or evaluate any dog. It's also pretty clear that you have never trained a hard dog....not what YOU think is a hard dog...what the rest of us KNOW to be a hard dog.

You comdemn the experience, training, and hands on knowledge of some of the most accomplished and most experienced trainers and handlers in this thread, which further demonstartes your ignorance.

You condemn the comprehension abilities of the posters here when it is blatantly obvious that YOU lack the simple ability to understand the difference between an attention getter / correction and abuse or infliction of pain. 

There is an old saying..."If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS"....However, that does not include anything about annoying them with arrogance and ignorance. BS is one thing....stupidity is another.

Lastly, it is obvious that no one here that trains truly hard dogs agrees with you. Time to go to school here! When you arrogantly denounce the well over 100 years of combined experience and success of the people that are not agreeing with you,...YOU undoubtedly need to learn what YOU are doing wrong.

And, allow me to reiterate one more time...... I certainly hope YOU are NOT a trainer! 

 

Naw, Feather'd be fine with Muffy in the dog park. The world needs Muffy trainers. And after all, Muffy would FOLD if she ever saw a boot. Good thing Muffy is spayed.

Feather: we totally GET what abuse means. However, I for one love my dog. I never never never do anything to make her not love me back. I would never never never do anything to make her fear me. On the one or two occasions on which I have booted her butt, she has turned around and given me the "Oops, I guess I deserved that" look. No screams, no cringing, nada. I DO NOT HATE MY DOG. I DO NOT KICK HER IN ANGER. 

Kyle, get over the language thing. I mean, who cares? Have you ever trained and NOT heard "bad" words on the field? I can't even imagine a bunch of nuns not swearing when their dogs accidentally punch them in the mouth. My dad used to say, "If you never heard the word before, you don't know what it means so it can't hurt you. If you've heard the word before, you already know what it means so it can't hurt you." Sometimes swear words are just the perfect expression of frustration...but that's off topic.

--Jackie 

Why someone would use 4 letter words in this public forum says alot more about the poster than it does the topic.  We must all examine the quality of the individual that is delivering the message.  The problem with this board now compared to when I first join is that everyone KNOWS EVERYTHING! Once upon a time ye of little knowledge sat back, watched, listened and learned.  Then when one possed a question, it was answered by someone of knowledge. 

No trainer worth their salt would use abusive techniques and call it training.  As some of you have already aptly stated, any training technique or device has potential for abuse.  I don't see a need for helicoptering a dog. 

I do know of a "difficult' dog that went thru training with a few police k9 handlers.  Finally no one wanted to deal with the dog and it was unsuitable to adopt out, so the dog was going to be put down.  This occurred in Europe and was explained to me by another police k9 handler / master trainer.  The dog had high nerve threshold, low pain threshold and was dominant.  All workable conditions by themselves but ugly when present together.  Basically if you gave the dog a correction it cam back at the handler.  The trainer had to establish dominance.  This type of work is not for the weak or faint of heart.  Once the pack order was understood the dog became a nice patrol dog.  But this dog was also short of memory.  Whenever the handler went away on holiday the pack order had to be reestablished.  I related this story because here is a dog that would have been put down if this last handler did not want to use easily misunderstood techniques to deal with this dog.

If you see something you are uncomfortable with, inquire before judging.  If you hear a story, leave it at that, just another story.  Too many folks want to jump to judgement w/o knowing what it is they are seeing.

And if you want to start flaming trainers how about using your real name.

Kyle

Good trainers know to judge and use their experience and skill wisely! They will have many years of dealing with all kinds of animals under their belt and have will taken it to heart (i.e. just time and many animals does not make a good trainer alone).
An unreasonable correction is rarely truly effective and ineffective corrections over and over again could in themselves be considered mildly abusive.  
And on a final note, I don't think it has anything to do with what discipline either! 

One of the neatest, quickest training sessions I ever saw invovled a well know Belgian trainer & a dog that was surging across the handler when heeling in practise for the dog's BH. The wise old master had the young handler walk the dog briskly down the field, & when the dog started surging across in front of the handler, she was to use her leg away from the dog, & without breaking stride, to bring that outside leg up & give the dog a quick pop on the nose with her toe. No endless corrections, prong collars, e-collars.....one little pop! Problem solved! And yet I guess that's a kick, & much more cruel than yanking the dogs neck endlessly? And I might add, that dog was the happiest dog on that field, that little pop in the nose never crossed his mind! JMHO jackie harris

I have frequently used the Kohler method of abruptly turning left across the path of a dog that's forging ahead. And if the dog's toes get in the way of my foot, well it just seems to vastly improve their focus on me, so they don't have it happen again!

I do try to maintain their focus with the more modern method of beginning with treats, and saying 'watch' or 'look at me', but if they are past this stage, SHOULD know better but aren't listening to me, I go back to the 'old' method.

One of the points I'm trying to make here is a good trainer needs as many tools as possible in their bag of tricks. I would try gentle methods first with a young dog, then go to more foreceful ones if the gentle, positive methods weren't working.

And yes, if you're starting with an adult dog that's blowing you off, and has no respect for you, the first order of business is to get that respect, by whatever method works. The dog that's now my service dog had to be pinned to the ground the first time I tried to take a toy away from him, and he growled and snapped at me. He hasn't growled at me (or anyone else) since.

 Quote:  The dog that's now my service dog had to be pinned to the ground the first time I tried to take a toy away from him, and he growled and snapped at me. He hasn't growled at me (or anyone else) since.

And thank God that worked, and the dog who needs the kick wasn't there instead. This is the kind of thing that bugs me. I remember people saying that pinning a dog to the ground was cruel.  And of course it is not. However, the kind of dog that is not EVER going to let you pin him to the ground, is not going to shatter if you gave him a boot in the ass. 

This sort of thread makes me wonder if the OP has ever had a dog with any strength at all.