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by Penny on 17 June 2010 - 16:06
No one is always innocent No Fear - I agree, but to have sat and tried to devise an alternative to the crap judging system that we have all decryed is a job worth doing. If it has holes in it in anyones opinion, the correct way is to be constructive - not destructive - to suggest what you can see may fit better, and put it to him - not come on here and completely ruin a thread about progress.
I believe you are in the US - and I accept that you may never have met David, but believe me, my above post is absolutely true. Mess him about and you are ridiculed, and need genuine assistance and he`s there, with very constructive help and advice - and people should be credited for the good that they do, just as they are blamed for anything that also goes wrong in their actions. Mo.
I believe you are in the US - and I accept that you may never have met David, but believe me, my above post is absolutely true. Mess him about and you are ridiculed, and need genuine assistance and he`s there, with very constructive help and advice - and people should be credited for the good that they do, just as they are blamed for anything that also goes wrong in their actions. Mo.
by NO FEAR on 17 June 2010 - 19:06
I dont disagree wit yu mo but goldenfall was only voicing an opinion & he was very ignorant to im for no reason otther than he had a different opinion . He does dis all the time n its not on
by Videx on 17 June 2010 - 19:06
I may have been a little harsh on Daryl - I simply do not accept that potentially rare and extreme possibilities should be used to undermine a proposal.
by NO FEAR on 17 June 2010 - 19:06
David yu may not believe dis nor may yu care but try bein a bit more civil to people even if yu disagree wit them & it mite suprise yu the reaction yu may get
by Blerio on 17 June 2010 - 22:06
Mo is right to high-lite the good points of David Payne, Many people have benefited from his assistance in many ways, which Dave doesn't brag about. He will always help anyone who genuinely needs support. David will never accept shite! from anyone, and rightly so. We all have our friends in this breed, If you get to know Dave, You really will like him! He is not always diplomatic, but so what! you need to lighten up, and accept no one is perfect. But never underestimate Dave's passion about the breed. My view about alternative judging is to take the selection of judges away from all committees, including the Breed council, and the league, We know year on year what shows are coming up, cleanse the judging list both open and champ show judges, and use a lottery style selection, All the names in a hat, selected against each show, This will stop the grace and favor appointments, If judges refuse to judge the show allocated onto the next judge. This is the only way to be clear of any influence by individuals, or committees in the selection of bent and problematic judges. Bill Owen.
by Abby Normal on 17 June 2010 - 22:06
Mo, a very decent post. Many people using this board are from all over the world, and may or may not know Mr Payne personally, and never will. The point is that all the nice things you say about him (for which we must take your word) are never EVER reflected in his communication with people on this board UNLESS they agree with him.
As for accepting ridicule for people who make mistakes as being 'fair', what a ghastly concept. In your own words, something positive would be much more useful. That you find ridicule in any situation acceptable really surprises me. I have seen some of your posts when you have actively offered to help others, in assessing dogs that owners feel are displaying aggression etc. That to me is a genuine interest in the breed. Sorry, but I still don't see it with Mr P. 'Passion' is no excuse either. No doubt there are many as, and perhaps even more passionate, but they don't feel the need to let loose a tirade of abuse and foul language as a result of their 'passion'.
Invariably it is Mr Payne who draws 'first blood' but is rarely castigated by his 'peers'. It is the others who reply under provocation who are invariably blamed. Then anything meaningful that may evolve on the thread is lost forever.
To be honest I think that enough time has been devoted to discussing one person, who really doesn't deserve the attention, and yet again any value that may have been gained by discussion has been lost.
As for accepting ridicule for people who make mistakes as being 'fair', what a ghastly concept. In your own words, something positive would be much more useful. That you find ridicule in any situation acceptable really surprises me. I have seen some of your posts when you have actively offered to help others, in assessing dogs that owners feel are displaying aggression etc. That to me is a genuine interest in the breed. Sorry, but I still don't see it with Mr P. 'Passion' is no excuse either. No doubt there are many as, and perhaps even more passionate, but they don't feel the need to let loose a tirade of abuse and foul language as a result of their 'passion'.
Invariably it is Mr Payne who draws 'first blood' but is rarely castigated by his 'peers'. It is the others who reply under provocation who are invariably blamed. Then anything meaningful that may evolve on the thread is lost forever.
To be honest I think that enough time has been devoted to discussing one person, who really doesn't deserve the attention, and yet again any value that may have been gained by discussion has been lost.
by Videx on 17 June 2010 - 23:06
Abby 'not' Normal - now all you should do is tell who YOU are! There is little worse that an anonymous poster on the internet.
by Abby Normal on 18 June 2010 - 08:06
BTW Mo
Members of this forum such as Mr Payne are the ones who, by their behaviour actively encourage anonymity. Why does he show such desperation to know someone's identity? It seems that it could be so that the bullying and personal abuse can be more targeted? Let's take the example of goldenfalls (who isn't anonymous) post. I read it, digested it, may or may not have agreed with it, but it was entirely irrelevant who wrote it. The CONTENT was what mattered.
Most people on dog forums have a user name that may or may not be their real name. Most frequently it involves part or all of a dogs name. I don't think I can ever recall a demand on any other forum for a poster to reveal their identity, or being called cowards for not doing so. Of course if someone were to make unfounded allegations about an individual, a dog or a showing incident, that would be different BUT the moderators would not allow it to occur. If this board was moderated (at all) it may be different.
It is noticeable that the nucleus of people who don't remain anonymous also don't challenge Mr P. Coincidence? I find it interesting though that those who do use their real names could be saying one thing under their main identity, and completely another under a call name.
I have a very good memory for some of the shenanigans that has gone on over the years on this board (if my memory serves me well, even personal physical threats) usually involving Videx, that made a very good case for using a call name.
Members of this forum such as Mr Payne are the ones who, by their behaviour actively encourage anonymity. Why does he show such desperation to know someone's identity? It seems that it could be so that the bullying and personal abuse can be more targeted? Let's take the example of goldenfalls (who isn't anonymous) post. I read it, digested it, may or may not have agreed with it, but it was entirely irrelevant who wrote it. The CONTENT was what mattered.
Most people on dog forums have a user name that may or may not be their real name. Most frequently it involves part or all of a dogs name. I don't think I can ever recall a demand on any other forum for a poster to reveal their identity, or being called cowards for not doing so. Of course if someone were to make unfounded allegations about an individual, a dog or a showing incident, that would be different BUT the moderators would not allow it to occur. If this board was moderated (at all) it may be different.
It is noticeable that the nucleus of people who don't remain anonymous also don't challenge Mr P. Coincidence? I find it interesting though that those who do use their real names could be saying one thing under their main identity, and completely another under a call name.
I have a very good memory for some of the shenanigans that has gone on over the years on this board (if my memory serves me well, even personal physical threats) usually involving Videx, that made a very good case for using a call name.
by missbeeb on 18 June 2010 - 08:06
Dingo!
by Penny on 18 June 2010 - 08:06
I agree with lots of your content Abby Normal. I know exactly why lots of people come on here anonymous, and it is for the very reason that you state - worry about how they will get castigated... but there are others, that log on at certain times, and just to floor a person and cause personal insult - that I cant go with, and I`m sure you wouldnt.
Ridicule. You pick me up on the fact that people who make mistakes shouldnt be ridiculed. I said, people who cause their own problems..... i.e. going to David if you have over-bred litter after litter, or bred indiscriminately, and found yourself with puppies coming out of your ears that you cant sell - you will get very short shrift. If you have caused yourself trouble by default and then go whining to David - you will be ridiculed rather than helped.
If you find yourself wrapped up in red tape or beaurocracy gone mad, and you have not earned the hassle, and if you cant write for yourself, or say for yourself - Davids your man. Bill Owen describes David too, in the manner that is is. Hey, I talk from some-one that watches what goes on, gets spoken to by many many people coming in to our training school (David is well known) or to buy a puppy and that know David, and believe me, I can see the wood for the chaff. The hilarious one was - and I dont think I have seen David since, is a nutter that came to buy a puppy from me, and I had already decided he wasnt having one on meeting him - to find him telling me within minutes, that I was such a nicer person than Videx who wouldnt sell him a puppy !!! ha ha - I must just smile more, because by the time he went puppyless, I was a bitch and Videx were no-hopers, This is a good debate, the Goods and Bads of Videx ha ha. Sorry David....
But I have to repeat, and it cant be ignored..... his vitreol comes from his passion and if you disagree with him in a debatable manner, the debate will continue - but if you disagree by using name calling or insults - you will find yourself a very bad enemy. I agree with you sometimes David comes on here with his braces a bit too tight, and he gets wrankled easily, but hey, sometimes doesnt outweigh the other times. Mo.
Ridicule. You pick me up on the fact that people who make mistakes shouldnt be ridiculed. I said, people who cause their own problems..... i.e. going to David if you have over-bred litter after litter, or bred indiscriminately, and found yourself with puppies coming out of your ears that you cant sell - you will get very short shrift. If you have caused yourself trouble by default and then go whining to David - you will be ridiculed rather than helped.
If you find yourself wrapped up in red tape or beaurocracy gone mad, and you have not earned the hassle, and if you cant write for yourself, or say for yourself - Davids your man. Bill Owen describes David too, in the manner that is is. Hey, I talk from some-one that watches what goes on, gets spoken to by many many people coming in to our training school (David is well known) or to buy a puppy and that know David, and believe me, I can see the wood for the chaff. The hilarious one was - and I dont think I have seen David since, is a nutter that came to buy a puppy from me, and I had already decided he wasnt having one on meeting him - to find him telling me within minutes, that I was such a nicer person than Videx who wouldnt sell him a puppy !!! ha ha - I must just smile more, because by the time he went puppyless, I was a bitch and Videx were no-hopers, This is a good debate, the Goods and Bads of Videx ha ha. Sorry David....
But I have to repeat, and it cant be ignored..... his vitreol comes from his passion and if you disagree with him in a debatable manner, the debate will continue - but if you disagree by using name calling or insults - you will find yourself a very bad enemy. I agree with you sometimes David comes on here with his braces a bit too tight, and he gets wrankled easily, but hey, sometimes doesnt outweigh the other times. Mo.
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