Square backs better? - Page 1

Howdy. While we are waiting for the BSZS results, I have a pint of discussion. I ran across a web site for a kennel in Africa that states there GSD's are better than the rest because of their flat backs and give the below reasons. It kind of makes sense to me logically although I didn't get the food adsorbing food well and Hip problems relationship. Any comments. "Another result of this selection is that the health of these dogs is far better than that of GSDs selected for unnatural shapes. Olderhill german shepherds have a natural 'square' shape. They are flat-backed and their hind legs straight, (unlike the show-ring german shepherd's sloped back and bent hind legs). Their spines are flexible like a cat’s, and so can easily take the pressure of high jumps and hard landings. People with show-ring GSDs call these flat, flexible backs 'soft' and judge them to be a fault. They want their dogs to have sloped, rigid backs and don't realize that this causes their dogs' spines to jar when they land after jumping. They just know that their dogs get damaged by jumping and so avoid doing it as much as possible. The Olderhill german shepherds don’t suffer from hip problems because they absorb their food well. Their hind quarters are wide and powerful, and don’t degenerate after a few years because of pinched nerves in the spine. We believe this to be the german shepherd dog's worst medical problem and in our experience 90% of all GSDs are euthanased because of this. We are not the only people to think so. Herr Raiser, the present breed warden of the German Shepherd Dog Federation in Germany, (the S.V - Schäferhund Verein), also estimates that 90% of today's GSDs are handicapped because of pinched nerves in the spine and that hips play a minor role. He is so gloomy about the modern german shepherd's health that he suggests putting belgian shepherd (malinois) blood into the german shepherd dog breed to make it healthier! Some of Germany's police agree with him and have started re-trenching their german shepherds and replacing them with malinois. If they knew that the original, healthy, flat-backed german shepherd dogs still exist in the Olderhills, then they would probably be glad to use them because they are much bigger and braver than most belgian shepherds."

Hello, Please post the African Web site addy. I wonder what lines they breed on. Thank you, Jim D. PS. Sorry for the blank previous comment, my fingers were faster than my mind!

Wow. That is some claim, supposedly backed at least partly by Herr Raiser. I don't think that any of us like the prevaling exagerrated roach back of many of the show-lines. Maybe the site is referring to the correct old-world back as a "flat back". I don't understand the relationship of food absorbtion to hip quality. It is suspected that a contributing factor of hip dysplasie occurs because of poor blood flow (insufficient/poorly-developed veins) to the affected areas of the joint, thus limiting proper development. But what does this have to do with food absorbtion? Beats me. Spinal problems do exist-we all know that. Are they exacerbated by the combination of a roached back and a short, steep croup? Possibly, but Ambred show-lines have a long straight back with very little difference of the croup angle when compared to the topline of the back, and they have spinal issues as well. The only published merit that I ever read that supporting a SLIGHT roach was for improved spinal integrity in the dog's later years. Broad backside-now that is a plus as there is more pelvis for the attachment of larger ligaments, plus improved stablity of the dog. It is interesting about the statement that Herr Raiser is allegedly aware of breed faults currently present. If this is true; what is he doing about it? Good subject, do right and fear no one. I want to see a lot more comments on this thread. Bob-O

bob-o, where did you get all this mumbo jumbo info from? k.

Here is the web site in Africa. Go to the Home Page after you get there. The also sell wolf/GSD crosses. http://websearch.cs.com/wm/boomframe.jsp?query=german+shepherd+wolf+african&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D91a776019b2a2e0d%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dgerman%2Bshepherd%2Bwolf%2Bafrican%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.olderhill.co.za%252Fwolfdogs_1.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DWMTResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.olderhill.co.za%2Fwolfdogs_1.htm

Bob-O From the article that i read some time ago when Raiser was the breed warden he was very vocal about this. Raiser wanted to open up the breed books to improve health and working temperament. He commented that the malinois and dutch shepherds did not have the the problems that the gsd had and suggested breeders should breed to these breeds. To say the least people were very upset (mainly the people that are involved in the show ring, which are the people that run the SV). These people basically wanted to tar and feather him from what i understand from talking to a sv judge. Raiser is no longer the breed warden. maybe Raiser's ideas are a bit radical, but a lot of great things have come from radical ideas along with some very bad things.

Are they true German Shepherds as I see the wolf cross (no better then a ladadoodle or shiloh in my book) and they are really heavy boned, short and stocky. They kinds look like a mastiff puppy in the one IMO. I agree I would like to see more squared hind ends but I don't want to take all the "extras" or "baggage" to get it IMO

Makgas, I get my information from a great deal of reading, listening to other people, and asking questions. The original poster was do right and fear no one, as he saw this on an African GSD website. I am merely trying to find out more information, hence the comments on what I know and presume to be fact, and my questions about things of that I am not aware. Thanks for the information, Workingdawg. I ws not aware of Herr Raiser's comments about those issues. Over the years I have read several excerpts from his lectures, but was not aware of his opinions towards mixing the breeds. Now I understand why I never heard of them. Bob-O

Okay, I checked the website and saw a handful of GSD's with the old world conformation build, so that must be what the site is calling a flat back. These are evidently some of the foundation animals for this breedline. Then I saw that the offspring are wolf/shepherd hydrids of a predetermined formula. I can't say that I condone this, but it is interesting. Basically, new (really old) genetic patterns being reintroduced. And these hybrids can evidently produce offspring which is not unheard of, but still unusual, so it is a breed that is self-sutaining for a generation or two (2), until very careful mating selection may be needed to maintain the formula. I have heard of people in the U.S.A. breeding various dogs, including GSD's to wolves with unpublished results, and have seen a few of these hybrids, but never a GSD hybrid. I know what I have heard but I hear a lot of things. Although it is somewhat unrelated, I do know there is the issue of some states (maybe all or maybe not all) that will NOT accept a rabies vaccination on a wolf or wolf hybrid because it is felt that the vaccine does not work. Is there any scientific evidence that supports this; I don't know. Bob-O

I totally disagree. Breeders of GSDs that have their dogs with no conformation to the standard, hence lack of proper front and rear angulations, and a properly sloping, long croup, often justify their dogs incorrect and poor structure by such rationalizations. These dogs with no angles and no croup (even if the back is flat) have no movement and tire out quickly when working. They are very unpleasing to the eye. A flat back is faulty if it is too long, also. Backs must be short. If the dog has no croup and no angles then movement tends to inordinately jar the back at the point of intersection of the spine into the pelvis, creating undue stress on the vertebra and often early myopathies and stenosis. The FCI standard exists for many good reasons, each one linked to functionally ideal and intended purposes in the GSD. To deviate from it with the excuse "old world dogs are better" is a cop out on every front and proves ones doesn't really know what a good GSD is built like and acts like. These folks just don't get it and never will because they don't want to learn and start over to acquire and breed good GSDs that approach the FCI stanadard as closely as possible.