"needs more lay back" - Page 1

what does that mean in regards to front angulation.....?

Lower pasterns..  

Calling all conform folks, need help with the lingo, thanks!

Sounds to me like this is in regards to the shoulder? A correct lay of shoulder will result in a higher head carriage. Do you have a photo of the dog whom this critique was given, and a full critique? Taken out of context, I am only guessing.

Yes, it is in regard to proper angulation of the shoulder

The "ideal" angle of the GSD shoulder (where the upper arm meets the shoulder blade) is a right angle. 

Lay back refers to the shoulder blade. Good lay back would be saying that the shoulder blade "angles" back from the sternum at the correct angle to contribute to a good "shoulder" angle.

"needs more lay back" is just a way of saying that the shoulder blade is placed more in an upright position and needs to be placed further back. If you see a dog and think "What a short neck" it is most often caused by the blade being too upright and needing more "lay back".

HTH,

Rik  

I read in explanation for the correct 90 degrees angle Rik mentioned above that it provides a longer reach, the lesser it is the the lesser reach made by the dog, sometimes due to the lesser angle the fore arm dos not reach beyound the dog's chin which is less than correct or preferable reach. Rik I hope what I said is correct, if I misunderstood what I read please correct me.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim. while the 90 degree angle is considered ideal, I don't think it shows up very often. Most are probably closer to a 100 degrees or so.

If you look at the ASS (American show shepherd, sorry I can't stop laughing over this one) most will have a very poorly placed upper arm that contributes to a very wide angle. Yet even with this faulty construction many will have a phenomenal shoulder opening or front reach.

I think that the angles specified in the standard are more what has been determined to allow the dog to trot all day herding rather than just to "reach".

Rik

ASS - American Show Shepherd - That's a good one! (LOL)

If it helps, I have this picture of my Rikkor daughter as a puppy at a show where she was placed VP1. The judge (Ernst Ruckert, I think?) stated she had an excellent lay of shoulder, the day this photo was taken.

Thanks Amy Prindiville for the photo.

The skeleton diagram on this very site is as good as anything in helping to understand the front assembly and lay of the shoulder see www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/structure_information/2.html

Now imagine being able to move the joint of the strenum & shoulder blade backwards and forwards along the length of the dog. Pushing this point in, towards the rib cage, would increase the angle between the two and produce both a more vertical upper arm and shoulder blade i.e. less lay back. One of the consequences of this can be a reduced reach.

Pulling this point out, away from the rib cage, will of course have the opposite affect. It will decrease the angle between the two and produce both a less vertical upper arm and shoulder blade i.e. more lay back. One of the consequences of this can be an improved reach.

I find it's often easier to 'feel' the lay of the shoulder than try to see it as coats often have markings that can lead the eye astray.

Cheers,

AandA