Training problem - bark and hold - Page 1

I am writing this for a friend who is a trainer and helper. He has a training issue with his own dog. At first this dog would run to the blind and guard the helper but without barking. At this stage he was very controlled and would release on command. But since teaching him to bark, problems have arisen. Firstly he now runs to the blind and immediately bites the sleeve. He will then release and bark, but always bites first. When he is allowed to bite he now won't release. These problems only happen when the helper is a different person, when the owner/trainer acts as helper he performs correctly. The trainer has used Ivan Balavanov methods throughout training. Any ideas?

Keep the Dog on a line and as he runs forwards to the helper check him and let him Bark if he makes just a move to bite then check him each time. It will take time but keep him on a line even if he looks okay it has to be right every time for some time, then when it seems okay keep him on a line but a slack line and if he barks well without going for a bite then do the same again slack line, if he makes a move to bite when he is not supposed to then give him a good hard correction
It will take time but should work out okay
Steve1

Thanks for the advice Steve, will pass this on...

At our club, our helper plays peek-a-boo with the young dogs. the helper hides behind the blind, hits it with the stick and generally makes a commotion as soon as the dog barks - he runs out and gives the dog the sleeve. the whole time the handler is shouting revere and encouraging the dog. eventually the dog has to bark twice  before being rewarded and then three, and four and so on.

Once the dog is barking well, the dog is put in front of the helper in the normal position.   A long leash in on the dog, the handler is commanding the dog revere and encouraging the helper is moving and offering the sleeve, as the dog barks, the helper runs to the dog and gives it the sleeve. Eventually the dog must bark numerous times before the helper runs to the dog and offers the sleeve.

Next we put a bent PVC in front of the helper who is in the blind. the dog must bark and not pass the line, of course the handler is encouraging the dog. As the dog improves the helper moves less and less. some times it a pssssssst, or eye contact or a small twitch to get the dog barking, As the dog improves the helper moves less and less as the dog barks more and more. if the dog grips the sleeve before the helper moves a sharp tug on a prong collar and the command for outing is given.....

Eventually this is done off leash.......but I'm not there yet, so I cannot tell about how that transition works........

it takes months.

Oso,
It sounds like the progression to the blind was too fast.  The dog was allowed to get "dirty" and get a bite in the blind.  This gave the dog a certain measure of success and now a problem has been created.  You mention it only happens on new helpers and not when the owner/trainer acts as the helper.  If I understand this correctly, the handler / owner also does some bitework with his own dog?  Most dogs that I have seen worked by their owner / handler don't react exactly the same way they do on a regular helper. 

I would recommend an approach very similar to Steve's.  I would start working the hold and bark outside of the blind on the field.  I would also not have the owner / handler decoy for his dog.  I would have a third experienced person work the long line as well.  The dog must never be able to get a "dirty" bite again in training the hold and bark.  You also mentioned that you now have an issue with the out.  I would work on one exercise at a time until it is perfected.  Then I would move to the next.  I would start with the hold and bark and slip the sleeve.  When the hold and bark is solid I would go back to the out training seperately.  It seems this dog is starting to have several issues and you need to address them right away. 

Sitasmom, you mention:

At our club, our helper plays peek-a-boo with the young dogs. the helper hides behind the blind, hits it with the stick and generally makes a commotion as soon as the dog barks - he runs out and gives the dog the sleeve. the whole time the handler is shouting revere and encouraging the dog

Why is the handler shouting and repeating the command?  How many tmes do you need to tell the dog "revere?"  Shouldn't the dog's barking make the helper move and not the helper's movement tmake the dog bark?  IMO, that's a lot of stimulation to make a dog bark.  I prefer my dog to bark to intimidate the helper and learning that strong independent barking, without too much handler encouragement makes the decoy move and the dog gets rewarded.  This way the dog doesn't look around the blind for the handler and is focused on the decoy only.  I personally do not like the decoy to stimulate my dog in the blind, it doesn't happen in a trial.  I also don't like a dog that is so dependent on the handler that it keeps checking to see where the handler is during the hold and bark.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Without stating the obvious, this dog was not ready to be worked in the blind (especially if he is not barking while guarding). Problems have arisen now that he has been made to bark for his bite, because probably some pressure was put on him to do so.... Which is okay, pressure is always needed to bring up the dogs nerves to make guarding hopefully real and intense. Even though this is "sport", we all like some realness to the guarding.

You might try putting the dog behind a fence, away from the blind, and teaching him to bark for his bite. The fence will make make him stronger, help keep him clean, and give your helper some room to "play with the nerves". Another option would be to tie the dog out. Again, I would do this away from the blind... You don't need any more problems there! As with the fence, the idea is somewhat the same, have some restraint on the dog (which also builds frustration and drive), and hopefully get him barking for his bite. Also, since the dog's training has stalwarted, the fence or tie out can allow for fewer corrections which may help the dog better understand what is expected of him.

It always helps the dog and the HELPER when a dog ready to begin protection work has been trained by his handler to grip, bark on command, and most importantly, to "OUT". It also helps to remember to always go back a few steps in training when problems arise.

Well said steve1 and slamdunk. You expressed exactly my thought. Theresa

Sounds like a combination of poor drive, lack of obediance, and maybe even a dog that needs to become a pet.  I have a Sch 3 and BH (20 months old).  Both dogs get in high fight drive as soon as they see the helper.  I had a slight issue getting the S3 to release but by refocusing my efforts on obediance I got what I was looking for.  Some dogs just don't have it bottom line. 

I agree with the advise from Steve, Jim and Bark & Hold too.  I too think the dog just doesn't understand the exercise, so going back to a long line, and the fence as described by B& H is also a very good option.  Either way, I think probably it's just back up in the training, sounds like he jumped to working him off lead before the dog understood the exercise.

I can't even comment on "peek a boo" and screaming handlers, it's just too bizarre for words.  If the helper makes attraction, dog should be crazy for the  helper, if the dog is not calling for the helper then put the dog up.  Again this is something that should be  inside the dog, you can't manufacturer drives in a dog who doesn't have it.