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by Videx on 07 October 2009 - 12:10
Many people are telling me that the title of Champion has become almost meaningless in our breed here within the UK. They give many reasons, and make references to many "CONNECTIONS" between Judges and those awarded the Challenge Certificates (CC's).
Some have expressed their intention to give up showing their dogs, and others have said that showing our GSD under the WUSV system, similar to the British Sieger Event would be far more preferable, especially without the CC's.
I suppose with fewer entries and therefore fewer exhibitors the "CONNECTIONS" issue will seem more obvious, then again maybe we are simply following the German system where "CONNECTIONS" are obvious especially with the SV Judges able to judge dogs they have bred, and dogs they have owned, and dogs they have recently sold yet still remain in their Kennel for stud duties etc, and may be handled by them and make VA at the German Sieger Show, as was apparently the case with VA Nando vom Gollerwieher.
I witnessed several owners of dogs being exhibited at this years German Sieger Show having conversations with the Judge in the ring, in view of hundreds of spectators and other exhibitors. It appears to be quite acceptable, and part of the normal practice.
Many people are telling me about conversations taking place between Judges and exhibitors in the ring, and of other questionable practices. Perhaps people are becoming more cynical and more suspicious, but one thing is certain, there is growing frustration and disappointment within our show scene.
This is perhaps a good time and maybe the best time for our GSD exhibitors to discuss these issues.
Maybe "This IS the Show Game" and maybe everyone has to play it, or learn to play it. One thing is certain, there are so many variables amongst exhibits and exhibitors it will never be a "level playing field".
Another thing is certain, no matter what you may suspect, it is almost certain you will never be able to prove it.
Knowing this can we really expect anything to change? Perhaps the "CONNECTIONS" can be left as the "sole exhibitors" at the shows where they are "connected".
Some have expressed their intention to give up showing their dogs, and others have said that showing our GSD under the WUSV system, similar to the British Sieger Event would be far more preferable, especially without the CC's.
I suppose with fewer entries and therefore fewer exhibitors the "CONNECTIONS" issue will seem more obvious, then again maybe we are simply following the German system where "CONNECTIONS" are obvious especially with the SV Judges able to judge dogs they have bred, and dogs they have owned, and dogs they have recently sold yet still remain in their Kennel for stud duties etc, and may be handled by them and make VA at the German Sieger Show, as was apparently the case with VA Nando vom Gollerwieher.
I witnessed several owners of dogs being exhibited at this years German Sieger Show having conversations with the Judge in the ring, in view of hundreds of spectators and other exhibitors. It appears to be quite acceptable, and part of the normal practice.
Many people are telling me about conversations taking place between Judges and exhibitors in the ring, and of other questionable practices. Perhaps people are becoming more cynical and more suspicious, but one thing is certain, there is growing frustration and disappointment within our show scene.
This is perhaps a good time and maybe the best time for our GSD exhibitors to discuss these issues.
Maybe "This IS the Show Game" and maybe everyone has to play it, or learn to play it. One thing is certain, there are so many variables amongst exhibits and exhibitors it will never be a "level playing field".
Another thing is certain, no matter what you may suspect, it is almost certain you will never be able to prove it.
Knowing this can we really expect anything to change? Perhaps the "CONNECTIONS" can be left as the "sole exhibitors" at the shows where they are "connected".
by steve1 on 07 October 2009 - 13:10
Videx
The Word Champion is used too freely in the UK and not just with Dogs it is the word itself which is questionable as a true insight to the quality of the product i.e Dog
You know you can have a little minor show, and the winner will be called CHAMPION
I have never owned a show Dog but in my other hobby racing pigeons the word Champion is banded about just as freely
for instance a small club race of a closed radius with say 20 members sending 150 pigeons the Winner in the UK will be called a CHAMPION
Now take this for an example
5,000 competitors from all over Europe send say 28,000 pigeons to Barcelona, the winner is called CHAMPION and rightly so for it is with a asking purchase fee of £300.000 at least
Where is the logic of the word
A dog wins a small show with say a dozen entries the owner calls it Champion
Crufts Winner is called Champion but you cannot compare the win of the small show to the Crufts winner but people who are not in the know think them equal in merit
So for me i never call anything Champion, it does not mean how it sounds in this day and age
St
The Word Champion is used too freely in the UK and not just with Dogs it is the word itself which is questionable as a true insight to the quality of the product i.e Dog
You know you can have a little minor show, and the winner will be called CHAMPION
I have never owned a show Dog but in my other hobby racing pigeons the word Champion is banded about just as freely
for instance a small club race of a closed radius with say 20 members sending 150 pigeons the Winner in the UK will be called a CHAMPION
Now take this for an example
5,000 competitors from all over Europe send say 28,000 pigeons to Barcelona, the winner is called CHAMPION and rightly so for it is with a asking purchase fee of £300.000 at least
Where is the logic of the word
A dog wins a small show with say a dozen entries the owner calls it Champion
Crufts Winner is called Champion but you cannot compare the win of the small show to the Crufts winner but people who are not in the know think them equal in merit
So for me i never call anything Champion, it does not mean how it sounds in this day and age
St
by Mackenzie on 07 October 2009 - 15:10
Racing pigeons, working dogs win on performance. Show dogs win on someones opinion and that introduces so many other factors.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by missbeeb on 07 October 2009 - 15:10
I know nothing about pigeons, but I can assure you that not ALL working tests are "won" on merit or performance. One might pick up a few points on a certain discipline when another doesn't (and should)... that's a fact, it's not fair and it's not acceptable, but it's how it is!
I'd never even heard of a "midnight trial" till I started reading this board, but I'd seen a few Sch dogs incapable of doing the most basic obedience and wondered... how!
by petowner on 07 October 2009 - 15:10
SO WHATS NEW !. The word CHAMPION lost it's true value years ago. There's always been champions that should never be champions for as long as I can remember and dogs that should be champions that never got a look in for one reason or another. The word CHAMPION written in red on a pedigree means everything to the public ! but ONLY to the puppy buying public and some kennel blind owners. When I first met my wife she told me she had amongst her 4 dogs a fabulous GSD that was the best quality you could find because the pedigree had lots of red champions in it !, I cringed and was dreading the day when I had to see the dog and its pedigree, my fears were right !, the dog had a nice nature but that was it. I won't go into the details but the breeding was not good by a long shot and not one that you would want to breed with. It has always been too easy to make a show champion and getting easier all the time , even easier at the general championship shows the same as how easy it has been made to qualify for Crufts .
by Mackenzie on 07 October 2009 - 15:10
In working competition it may be that some points are earned or, lost undeservedly. However, the real point is that the working dogs, or, racing pigeons have a performance based result. Show dogs just turn up and run around in a circle while someone looks at them to give an opinion.
With regard to the SchH dogs incapable of doing the most basic obedience then one has to question whether or not the qualification was paid for. Over the years I have tried to buy dogs at Sch H 1 level. To date I have not bought one. One or two were just too expensive but the majority that I turned down was because they would not do the basic obedience. I always ask for Sch H1 dogs if I can see them work a little. Usually, the sleeve comes out and I have politely said I want to see the obedience side of the dog. Many times I have been refused, or, the dog is promised to someone else or some other excuse. In those cases I walk away. Until more prospective buyers do the same as I do there will always be no change in what you see.
Mackenzie
With regard to the SchH dogs incapable of doing the most basic obedience then one has to question whether or not the qualification was paid for. Over the years I have tried to buy dogs at Sch H 1 level. To date I have not bought one. One or two were just too expensive but the majority that I turned down was because they would not do the basic obedience. I always ask for Sch H1 dogs if I can see them work a little. Usually, the sleeve comes out and I have politely said I want to see the obedience side of the dog. Many times I have been refused, or, the dog is promised to someone else or some other excuse. In those cases I walk away. Until more prospective buyers do the same as I do there will always be no change in what you see.
Mackenzie
by steve1 on 07 October 2009 - 16:10
Over here in the circles i move in you will get any test you want if you are in for buying a Dog thats fact Obed Tracking and Protection, and rightly so
Steve
Steve
by paulie on 07 October 2009 - 17:10
There is a saying in selling that 90% of all business is sold by 10% of the sales force, and believe me when i tell you those numbers never alter, weekly, monthly or yearly. I have a suspicion that the same numbers apply to exhibitors winning CCs, we all try, ........ but !!! anyway the point i am making, is that for the majority of exhibitors a proper grading system would be of more use, and would infinitely be of more benefit than chasing elusive CCs, plus, .....and this could be the icing on the cake, there would be no need for DUBIOUS JUDGING, because there would not be any need for recipricol arrangements.
Regards, Paul Rattigan.
Regards, Paul Rattigan.
by funky munky on 07 October 2009 - 17:10
"All show dogs have to do is turn up and run in a circle". I am sorry people but i have heard this said sooooo many times and said nothing. I can't speak for all owners of show dogs but mine and anyone else i knew put in so much work to keep these dogs fit to run that "circle". No tradmills in my day it was all done on foot or bike, walking, biking, swimming, running and off lead hill hiking!!!! My dogs were in peak condition and fitness, so there's more to it than "running in a circle". As to the word Champion i have never placed much merit on that, some are worthy some are not. Schutzund, i am not interested in participating, so shoot me, i admire those that do, as i admire anyone who does something physical with their dogs. Liz
by steve1 on 07 October 2009 - 17:10
Hi Liz
Regards Schutzund, over here they do not use the word Champion in the same context as those in the UK do
We use top Dog etc or good breeding bitch, the word Champion does not crop up often it will if Belgium wins the WUSV or the team does and then the word Champion will mean something otherwise to me it means very little
Steve
Regards Schutzund, over here they do not use the word Champion in the same context as those in the UK do
We use top Dog etc or good breeding bitch, the word Champion does not crop up often it will if Belgium wins the WUSV or the team does and then the word Champion will mean something otherwise to me it means very little
Steve
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