Michael Ellis - Page 1

Does anyone have any thoughts on Michael Ellis.  I really like his training style or at least what I have seen so far.  It is difficult to copy it because of the timing, or at least forme.  Just wanted to hear some different points of view.

As long as you are not training dogs for someone else when time is money, it seems to work well, for most things. It is not difficult as far as timing, you just need to have the patience of a Saint when dealing with some dogs and lets face it, not all dogs have the amount of food drive a dog needs to go through this system.
There is a reason why Mr Eliis has a training school for HUMANS, he would be broke if he trained dogs. 

he wouldn't be broke if he trained dogs.  You don't need the patience of a saint, you just need some patience and realize you might have to teach the dog a few things rather than beat them thru it all.  It doesn't take any longer, in fact in many ways it's easier, because you spend some time laying a foundation that makes everything else much easier.  Rather than rushing thru everything in the beginning and then spending all that time covering up mistakes hoping they don't rear their ugly heads at the wrong time.  


all dog training is just timing and consistency.  It doesn't matter what "method" you use.  If you don't have those two things, you'll find it to be more difficult than it should be.

Zdog..a trainer usually takes 3-4 weeks to teach 5 commands to a dog he is training for basic OB and charges however much he does..do you think its possible to do it following Mr Eliis's system?
A police K9 trainer has about 10 weeks to train a dog in on/off leash OB, tracking, bulding search, article search, area search, obstacle course, all apprehension work, including the "out", etc. Do you think its possible to do it with Mr Ellis's methods?

I've known Michael Ellis for 10+ years. I used to say he trains Ivan Balabanov methods better then Ivan.
However in the past couple of years he has refined his own methods so they are unique. One of the  best things to happen in protection sport training (Schutzhund and esp Ring) is the Michael Ellis DVD Series by Leerburg.
The methods are simple effective and all the DVD's are extensive with many examples. I want to see examples of trainers like me with dogs like mine. Not how the World Champion does it :-)
There are lots of free ME videos on the Leerburg site to get you started but if you are really interested in
learning the Michael Ellis training method? Get the "training dogs with Food" and "Playing Tug with Your dog"
DVD's

Hired Dog

I'm guessing from your posts that you are NOT familiar with any of the ME DVD's?
The method works with most dogs (as you'd see if you looked at any of the DVD's) not just those with
High food or toy drive. It also doesn't require any more patience then the old yank and crank methods but is a lot more effective.

Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) DS BH TT MR I
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) BH STP I

I was a die hard yank and crank trainer.( Started training for the public in 1986)   That said I am coming over to the dark side.  I have always pish poshed food training.( stupid untrained dogs, people running about with weiners in their pockets...rediculas)  Well guess what, this old bag is learning new tricks !  I do get frustrated with how slowly everything moves along BUT when it comes together it looks amazing and in reality the dogs are so much happier.  So I can't get the same results as quickly as I used to, who cares.  Still have the basics down in 7 days,  Yank and crank you finish your basic commands in about a week then move to off leash.  However how many dogs can't stand up to this kind of pressure.   While I am far from experienced with ME's methods I am learning and evolving with dog training.  All I can do now is apologize to the dogs who went through earlier training.  Yes they ended up trained and I am so positive the dogs worked joyfully but the inital training....well... All i can say is I know better now.

I really like some of his exercises and really can't stand some of the others.

Thomas, I am very familiar with Mr Eliis's methodology, and I agree with some of it, however, the question I asked was how long it would take to train a dog using the hypotheses I used above. Also, please explain to me how a dog that has NO food drive can be trained with food using this method...unless we starve said dog before training starts.
Again, if you are training your own dog and have no time limits, its a great system, but, if you are pressed for time for whatever reason, I cant see it. I welcome opposing views as I always love learning.

I'm curious to know why you don't think it's possible?  It creates a very stable and excellent base from which to explode your training potential.  I certainly wish to train my dogs in much more than forcing them in to a measly 5 commands.  and yes, in 4 weeks I could take a dog and they'd have as good of rate of compliance as any other dog out there in that time and that's me.  Nobody gives a shit who I am.  Those more talented i'm sure can do it as well.

so don't use food, it doesn't have to be food, it just has to be rewarding and that comes in all sorts things.  now if you want to say you have  a dog for police work that doesn't like tugs or toys either, I"m just going to call bullshit.

I know people that don't know shit about dog training are impressed with a dog that lays there because it's afraid to do anything else.  I know they think a dog that sits in front of it's handler whenever it gets there because if it doesn't it gets its ass kicked is a dog that understands sit.  Not hard to pattern train 5 commands thru force at all, problem is, the dog doesn't know them, and the more force you use, the more you limit what you can train in the future.  So you hang on to your views, the rest of the training world will continue to pass you by.

Hired Dog,

I haven't seen too many dogs that don't have either food or toy drive. You can use either drive in the ME
style of training. Also there's a difference between NO food drive and a preference for a particular treat.
I dog that wouldn't work for kibble or a dry biscuit, will stand on his head for liver.
I would NEVER take my dog to a "professional" trainer because "time is money" and compulsion is the
quickest (but far from the best) way to get results. If "time constraints" is your primary motivation you're probably in trouble from the beginning :-(


Thomas Barriano
Dubheasa Germania (11/05/99-08/11/08) SchH III M R Brevet AKC WD III AWD 1 STP 1 CD WAC TT
Ascomannis Jago (06/20/03) SchH III AKC WD III AWD I TT WAC
Belatucadrus (08/14/05) DS BH TT MR I
Flannchadh von der Bavarianburg (5/21/08) BH STP I