In breeding ?? - Page 1

I wonder if anyone has an opinion on whether or not this proposed breeding is too close. Dog "A" mated to Bitch "A" (No close ties or linebreeding) to produce Puppy "A" Bitch "B" mated to Dog "B" ( No close ties or linebreeding) to produce Puppy "B" Dog "A" and Bitch "B" are brother and sister. Can Puppy "A" be bred with Puppy "B" ?? Your thoughts appreciated. Thanks Chris

Chris, in my opinion it is too close for safety. It is essentially a 1-1 linebreed of 50% of the genetic patterns. That is just my opinion, though, and as you, I welcome other opinions. Bob-O

Thanks Bob, wouldn't it be 2 - 2 of 50% ? I think the SV don't allow closer than a 2 - 3. I'm not sure what happens in the case of a brother and sister line converging Best CHris

A 2-2 is allowed in the AKC, but I would stay away from such a close linebreeding (this is basically inbreeding) unless you know 1000% what you are doing, including knowing all traits (desirable and undesirable), hereditary issues (heart, thyroid, coat factor, hips, elbows or any other health issue which is genetic) in dogs you are linebreeding on so closely. There is a reason that it is not allowed (unless with very difficult to attain permission, if I am not mistaken) in the SV. I do of someone who does these close linebreedings, and there tend to be an abundance of issues, because you not only double up on the good, but the bad as well. I have never thought it was a good idea, and would never be so bold as to think I knew enough to do this. This is just my personal opinion. Others may disagree, but since you asked...

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/401432.html ***************************************************** In the SECOND generation, on the mother line of this dog(Yimmy Van Contra) seems like a perfect example of what you are refering to. The mother and father are half sister and brother, both sired by Vitus Vom Haus Farrenkopf. I have heard much discussion at shows in Germany, regarding this inbreeding, and most I hear talking about it don't like it. Stephen

It is 3-3,not 2-2.Inbreeding 3-3 is allowed.

Chris, I believe you are correct. It would be a 2-2 linebreed, and not allowed under S.V. rules. I don't know why I typed 1-1, just my mindest I guess. As far as the A.K.C. is concerned, they will register an incest breeding (brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son) and they have a special form for this type of registration. I presume the puppies' registration application, certificate, and pedigree looks just like any other A.K.C.-registered dog. Having never done (and never will do)this, I do not know anything past that. But I have seen it many times in an Ambred pedigree, and I don't think they were all accidental breedings. Good point Stephen. Taking it a step further, if one searches really hard they can find siblings in a linebreed that is not recognized as a linebreed. It is hard to pass such a breeding off with current S.V. rules (kennel name, litter character, etc.) but it appears in Ambred showline pedigrees I think because very few American A.K.C. breeders practice a strict naming convention. Bob-O

I think felsenhof s right wen u r sure then go for it but inbreeding s main thing in breeding but sv not allow us to do this,look at treinzbachtal breeding he got super results but wen he done again n again then he losed his position ,look at ADRK they go for inbreeding but very carefully most of them get super results actually it depends on breeder wen he bred a dog then its mean he s drawing a gene pool now wen he wants different gene or genes in it he used that one ,its like a painting, painter select the colour n place so wen he need a double strook(inbreeding) he used it, its my views sorry if someone disagree wth it.

Its a line breeding of 2-2 on the DogA/FemaleB litter. Even applies if these two were pups out of a repeat litter (A vom HausX and B vom HausX, both out of the same parents but different breedings). You see these types of line breedings expressed on the SV pedigrees with both names listed separetely and an asterix before them and the line breeding behind them in brackets. The SV can award special permission to close line breedings. Registration matters aside, the breeding should be determined by your objective and breeding goal, not because you conveniently have these two dogs available for mating. This topic has recently been discussed here. Do a search for it, you should find more info on similar discussions. If you do such a close breeding, the two dogs used for it should have as few flaws as possible. You will be compounding everything, the good and the bad. So best not to start out with anything that is obviously bad. If both parents have similar flaws for example, expect them to be there in the litter. It can go either way, the results can be fantastic, or you may wish you had never done it. You will only know after the fact. So at the very least be aware that things can go wrong. If both parents are very good specimen overall, the results could be very good. Just do it for the right reasons. Stephen, not quite. Leah, Yimmys dam is directly line bred 2-2 on Vitus, the same dog. This litter is line bred on brother sister, who are genetically close, but never identical - two different dogs out of the same parents and would look like this: --------------------------------------------------HAPPY DADDY ------------------------------A-SIRE VON HAUS-X --------------------------------------------------HAPPY MOMMY --------------------A von Puppy --------------------------------------------------Somedog ------------------------------Bdam von Kennel-B --------------------------------------------------Anotherdog ----------LITTER --------------------------------------------------Bigdog ------------------------------Csire von Kennel-C --------------------------------------------------Littledog --------------------B von Puppy --------------------------------------------------HAPPY DADDY ------------------------------A-DAM VON HAUS-X --------------------------------------------------HAPPY MOMMY In comparison Leah: --------------------------------------------------VISUM ARMINIUS ------------------------------VITUS HAUS FARRENKOPF --------------------------------------------------YANKA AGRIGENTO --------------------Harto Sendling --------------------------------------------------Jello Wienerau ------------------------------Cina Wienerau --------------------------------------------------Venja Wienerau ----------LEAH --------------------------------------------------VISUM ARMINIUS ------------------------------VITUS HAUS FARRENKOPF --------------------------------------------------YANKA AGRIGENTO --------------------Remy v Contra --------------------------------------------------Zamb Wienerau ------------------------------Ratta Wienerau --------------------------------------------------Vaneska Wienerau

V Nico von haus Klebach VH1 Kkl1a http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/404856.html He is a half brother / half sister cross, or 2 - 2 on VA4 (CH) Alke van Noort SchH1 Kkl1a. So many people have negative opinions on these kind of breedings not based on actual breeding experience but second, third, etc hearsay, they read or heard somewhere. If you break away from the from the blind, who blindly follow what misinformation they have been told or read about inbreeding / linebreeding and think outside of the box, many performance breeds are linebreed and inbreed with wonderful results. (father x daughter, mother x son, full brother x full sister, full brother & full sister off of a half brother and sister breeding, so on and so on) Look at border collies, racing greyhounds, game bred american pit bull terriers, hunting coonhounds, hunting bird dogs and many more. Inbred, linebred and inbred and linebred for 25 or more generations that you can research on many of these and other breeds. Then you hear the amateur geneticist who breed German Shepherd Dogs, regurgitate that you can not breed brother and sister etc., for whatever made up ridiculous reason they give. The rest of the canine world is breeding what they need to and reaping the rewards of genetic success. How come early registered German Shepherds were bred father to daughter, to granddaughter, half brother and sister and so on? Then suddenly, these type of breedings are not allowed by the SV on paper, yet several famous and historical breeders over many years are accused of doing exactly these type of breedings and falsifying the paperwork to cover up their advancement in genetics. After all, these type of breedings were not allowed by the SV on paper. Ask some of the old timers out there, you find this is working and show lines. Martin