Speaking of Hips...HD noch zugelassen - Page 1

HD noch zugelassen (a3), simply translated from German should be STILL ALLOWED. Meaning that dog has still allowed degree of hip ...
      I am just wondering WHY would someone use a dog with this rating for breeding. Just because it is still allowed according to guidelines, SHOULD it be.
     I guess I can see why the owner of a titled female might try it (although I would imagine that would be one of those people that don't honor their hip guarantee anyway), BUT why in the world would a stud dog owner breed to the female, and risk that failing hip score coming back on their dog?
     Just recently I was informed of a dog that is severely dysplastic from the  line of a male I am interested in. When I asked about the female (mother), and was given the pedigree, I checked it out. What I found was a few dogs with the noch rating on the dam's side (to me, not rocket science why there are dysplatic pups).
    Breeding for the betterment of the breed,(????),in my opinion should not consist of using anything questionable when it comes to the hips.
    The heck with if you don't really care about the buyer, but why risk creating dogs that are eventually going to end up suffering.
    Am I wrong in thinking noch ratings should not be used?

The best breeding male dogs from all time Jeck von Noricum was having noch zugelassen,today there is no gsd without Jeck in his blood.Noch zugelassen dont mens that you will have bad hips out of female or male with this hips score.Better to have noch zugelassen then fals normal and bad hips,you know how it can be that all dogs in SV Siegerschow are having all normal,and that is results from four years behind,where then are coming bad hips if all have normal?Can someone answer to that?????

Jeck was a show line dog. I guarantee you that there are thousands of dogs, working line, who do NOT have him in their pedigree. I agree , somewhat, with the rest of your statement. Dogs with good and/or excellent hios have produced dysplastic progeny. Dogs that were actually dysplastic have produced dogs with good hios. It's a crap-shoot, but an intelligent breeder tries to reduce the odds by avoiding breeding to dysplastic dogs. Simple.

Miro and Mystere are right- i will also ad when breeding i also  look at the ZW number, that tells me whats going on in that blood lines. i look for as low as ZW i can find on a stud. as yes 2 A normal dogs can produce HD, i would also look on what that certain dog is producing as some with Noch hips may not produce HD , so there is alot you should like at not just the A stamp. and all breeder have produced HD, if they say it or not its there.

Like Trixx said, you look at the ZW, so if he is A3 and ZW of 105, then you breed him to a female with very good ZW to "better" it, just like you do with any trait....but yes, I guess there is plenty of dogs to breed to, unless that particular male has some wanted traits, like Jeck had. Good luck

About ZW,you know how it is count on?Breeder who is a good friend with veterinarian will not send bad picture to sv to having bad hip score and do harm to his female(mother ) and male dog,and what happened then,dogs with bad hips are staying at home to people who dont care about breeding and shows and SV dont have theres hips score,only have for good ones,my opinion ZW are not bad thing bad not true in 100 %,only maybe 60 %

When they first started doing the 'a' stamp they did not even give ratings as they didnt want everyone to only use 'a' normal and wash out the 'a' nz dogs.  If you look back in the history of the breed you can see why!  Some of the top producing dogs were 'a' fast normal, some even 'a' nz or from nz parents! 

While hips are very important in breeding, there are so many other things that are just as important if not more important.  Elbows, other health issues like cancer, bloat, DM, PF, digestive problems, horrible allergies and skin problems, eye problems like pannus, and so on... And temperament, what good is a dog with excellent hips if he is a mess in temperament and lives in fear of everything?!  Then when you have to look at things like working ability, structure, etc... It is often naive to think that a dog should be thrown out of the gene pool for not being the "best" in one area.  There are less 'a' nz dogs today then there was decades ago it seems, so a person doesnt need to use a nz dog if they do not want to... but If someone feels that this nz dog is best in all other ways and will accomplish what they need in their breeding program, that is their choice.

I have never been faced with that, so not sure what I would do honestly... but I would take many things into consideration and wouldnt rule a dog out JUST due to their hip rating (obviously as long as they are passing). 

Also noch zugelassen is a very controversial rating.  Some feel it = HD, while others do not believe that.  I have heard of too many dogs who are rating nz then come here and pass OFA, so I dont believe that it is always "bad" hips.  But I would probably want a 2nd opinion or to see the x-rays if I were considering a dog like that. 

JMO of course
Valerie

as far as the ZW number, I believe it can be helpful but a dog with bad xrays many times are not sent so the number is not a factual thing at all. I know of someone that just sent a females xray with bad hips because the breeder wouldn't accept her not doing it for a replacement. Now they are upset because they came back bad and it shot the ZW numbers of the parents up.

Like the one person said you may not want to shy away from a A3 rating just because of that, if the dog is perfect in many  other ways, I would not like to see both parents having a A3 rating though, a low number ZW rating is always nice to see what the trend is in that line but of course we all know that this is not a for sure thing either,if your looking for a great ZW score in a working line look to Aly I think he is rated as a 69 score which is a great rating

Don Rolandsteich was NZ and was also a known producer of good hips.

I had a great grandson of his out of his son David Nebelholz who had an a stamp and an OFA good at 3 or 4 years.

Michele