Von Hayden Shepherds refuses to send paperwork - Page 8

I had a litter and the people came to see the pups and made their decisions of which pup.  Then they came back to obtain their pup.  This was long long before anything digital or fax, etc.   The contract gave all the id info on the parents, etc.  I went to the shelf where I had put the blue slips and they were gone!  I no longer remember if it was one or two or more.  That was at night.  The next day I found bits and pieces of the paper.  A pup or more had pulled the papers down and run outside and chewed them up.  These guys were only 12 weeks old and the shelf was rather high.  I sent material to AKC by Express Mail and enclosed an Exp ress Mail envelope mail back.  Was so afraid of being accused as this person is and I was totally innocent -- pups ate the papers.

after the trouble we have been having with the dog , the fact that many think he is not a GS, seeing this posting, and not getting very much response from the breeder, we are starting to worry .

the trainer believes that he is part something else b/c of his head shape and ears. can see him on their facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.300472946656582.61958.106800742690471&type=1



That is a very pretty, very purebred German Shepherd.  It is a Sable coat, which most people are not aware as a GS colour.  I have a beautiful bi-colour GSD (the one in my avatar pic off to the right) and I have to argue with people that he is purebred.  I suspect your dog has some East German or Czech dogs in his pedigree which explain the colour.  Looking at those photos on Facebook I say with 100% certainty that is going to be one magnificent definitely purebred German Shepherd.  without a doubt.  He is going to be a looker.

What is his pedigree, would love to see who the sire is on him and who is in his pedigree

Hmm...I suspect trainer #1 may well be the one I just posted about on your other thread, now that you mention that he works with guide dogs and the like...and if that's the case, you DO have a tough situation on your hands, because the fellow I have in mind has quite an expansive 'toolbox' of training methods and techniques in his repertoire, so if HE is concerned that the pup isn't appropriately responsive, that would certainly give me reason for concern.

Looked @ the pictures of your pup, and it's as I thought--people are used to seeing the Rin-Tin-Tin kind of GSD, not the sables like your pup, so they automatically think they're mixed breeds; people who have sable GSDs hear a lot of 'Is that a wolf-hybrid?' kind of questions. Little does the general public know that sable is the most dominant color in the breed.

No, I don't think for one second that Olex is not a pure GSD; it looks like he's built like a little tank, which is not unusual with the European working lines, and his ears aren't 'funny', they're just still in that changing mode that is very, very common of GSD puppy ears...sometimes their ears will even form a 'conehead' look as they develop and gain strength to stand upright.  He's a very good looking puppy, and I'm sure he's very well-bred, too.

You can see what a drastic change of living conditions the pup has experienced when you look at those pictures, with him playing ball and running free in the fields of the country, and then contrast that to the hustle and bustle of a North Jersey suburban neighborhood...it looks like he is pretty into that ball in those pictures, and THAT may be the key that unlocks this puzzle with him: use his ball to get his focus *before* he gets stressed out, and try to keep his sessions out and about very short for the present.

Also--you mention that his stools are loose, and while that could just be a product of his being stressed, it could also be signalling something else, so you should consult with your vet about that before getting too far into working with the pup. If he's not well, that will add to what's overwhelming him, and just makes things worse.

Was there a written contract between you and the breeder that spelled out exactly what you believed you were purchasing as far as the degree of training the pup already had, and what your expectations were? 

k9nme, if this was the first time this issue had come up with the breeder in question, that would be one thing; if this was a situation such as yours, it would be different, too--you HAD the litter registrations, and I'll bet it didn't take you months and months to replace the ones that were eaten, did it? I'd also bet that you kept in close contact with the puppy buyers and they knew where things were in the process, too.

Yes you are right on all your comments!!!!!

Please see P.M.

i was told by email that olex's mother is xara and the father is vader.  their lines are both at the webisite

http://von-hayden.com/xara.html
 http://von-hayden.com/vader.html

that's good to know. thank you.  i still want to give them benefit of the doubt and just chalk it up to some sloppiness in work habits.

the correction method used by the 1st trainer had worse reaction - more aggressive.  nearly everyone agrees not to pet him or comfort him when he is having the bad reaction as that will encourage more bad behavior. we are trying food treats which we carry with us on walks. nor sure if he understands that if he doesnt bark or growl or lunge, he gets a reward.   for braver dog people who are willing to take some time to approach him, we sometimes ask them to give him the treat.  he backs away and it usually takes several attempts before he will take the treat. after a treat, he usually still backs away from them and won't let them touch him; some of the braver folks are willing to pat his head a bit which he doesnt like but might allow once before he backs away quickly.  we have similiar reaction to visitors.  a relative has come over 4x times to meet him and he still backs away and won't let her touch him. he will only play with toys or chewing items for a very short time - maybe 10 minutes; it is probably another sign of how unsettled he is.  

 
 

from your description in your latest message - he sounds like a nervebag.  Genetic.  I think you've done everything you can to get help in assessing his temperament and you are doing the right things to try to help him.  But bottom line is, temperament is temperament.  If he's a genetic nervebag, then nothing you can do is going to change that.  Yes, training and socializing will HELP, and yes you could keep him under control with training and proper handling so that noone is bitten - but in the end you aren't going to change the tiger's stripes.  You are holding a big liability on the end of your leash - send  him back to the breeder and get your money back.  Talk to an attorney, maybe a letter would help the breeder decide to work with you in this matter since the dog is not the "trained and social" dog promised to you (and what you paid for).  Two trainers have confirmed this, ask them if they can support you by writing letters, speaking to the breeder, or standing up with you in court if it goes that way.

back from the vet. i am reeling. 


big problem - dog's testicles are either missing or not down.  we were told by breeder that he was not fixed and send literature to indicate that this breeder does not recommend fixing dogs at young age; our contract does not require us to fix him.  we thought he looked kind odd (down there) but we have not had puppies before.  we are not breeders or professionals; we have no plans to breed him and would only want to if we ended where we were before.  heartbroken at the loss of a great great dog and regretful that the dog had been fixed before it came to us.  either a) we were lied to, whether intentionally or not or b) the dog probably needs major surgery as the vet indicated that the testicles sometimes dont come down and will become cancerous inside the dog's body if not found & removed. he noted that normally he should be able to feel them but could not


vet also noted that dog might be younger than we are led to believe, as he has nearly all of his baby teeth.


this is just too much for us.  we are going to see if they will take the dog back.



 




 

My GSDs that I have now, my two younger ones did not start losing baby teeth until between 7 and 10 months. Just like human babies dogs also have a wide range of normal for when they lose their teeth. I highly doubt the dog was neutered prior to you buying him, but it is possible that his testicles are undescended. I don't know if at six months there is cause fOr concern just yet. My males have always descended but I can't remember the exact timing and honestly I don't know exactly when to raise concern. Someone else here will be able to speak to that I am sure. I would most certainly get a second opinion before committing to any surgery. I do realize that you are having other issues with the dog as well. My personal thought is that the dog isn't right for your family. The dog in the FB page photos is a very happy carefree puppy and the puppy you describe is not. I do think that the behavioral issues can be overcome but I think the dog needs a very experienced handler. He is not for someone who had had a single German shepherd as a pet in the last ten years but for someone who works with GS working lines as a career. He sounds to me as though he is not a novice dog but I am willing to bet that in the right environment he will be a great dog. It's clear from the FB photos that he had experience with children and is happy so at this point I don't see any reason for you to continue with him as you have already set your mind on not liking him, you will just continue to find negative in any aspect of working with him. That is just human nature. It's not fair to either of you. I don't think you got a bad dog, just not the right one for you.