Interesting comment made to me today - Page 1

I am the proud owner of a fine WL GSD, have had several in the past, adore the breed.  While at a dog show this afternoon, in chat, I was told by a proud Border Collie owner that it is far more difficult to raise and train successfully a BC than a GSD. I was also told that specific talents are required to rear a BC.  Hmm, since I have never owned, nor raised a BC, but quite a few WL GSD's, I know what my opinion is, but again, I have not personally raised a BC.

Just curious as to others opinions on this belief, that seemed quite prevelant among the BC owners.

Thinking on this matter this evening.

Thanks,
Zeek

A lot of border collie puppies are very shy and fearful. They learn quickly, too, so it can be easy to make a mistake. On the other hand, they don't have the inclination toward defense or aggression that many GSDs get, nor do they end up as "imposing" as many young GSDs.

I think my response would have just been to nod and acknowledge that everyone has an opinion. It's very cake vs. pie.

Many bc do not get as much excersize or work as they need and become basket cases through no fault of their own and as well many are naturally dog reactive.

Indeed, everyone has their opinion, but I gather from the comments thus far, that essentially the difficult part is dealing with the shyness and or fearfulness, which is far less common in a well bred WL GSD. Perhaps this is what the BC folks were referring to, although, none of them really came out and said that. IMO, some of the BC's observed were unable to focus on anything, including their handler. 

Just interesting.
 

Here's my take on the subject:

The average GSD pup can fit into just about any average 'dog-friendly' family with less effort and less drama than the average Border Collie pup, regardless of whether the dogs of either breed are from working, conformation or performance event breeding programs.

As with many breeds, the Border Collie was developed for a specific purpose--originally, herding sheep in what is now the United Kingdom--and therefore were bred to retain certain traits and characteristics while eliminating or at least avoiding others.  The dogs needed to be intelligent enough to learn quickly, and independent enough to work without direct human supervision as needed.  It also needed to be sensitive enough to its handler to read the person's intentions quickly and clearly, but it was also better if the dogs weren't inclined to buddy up with any person they might come across--better they tend to avoid humans they don't know and work for when they're on duty, and keep their focus on their flock...so some shyness and fearfulness wasn't considered a liability so long as the dog was confident enough with the sheep to take control of the flock.  For generations, the BC was bred almost exclusively for livestock work, without any thought to them being strictly companion dogs, though you occasionally saw a few in obedience trials.  In recent years, the breed became extremely popular as obedience, agility and flyball competitors, and around the same time a segment of fanciers succeded in getting the Border Collie full AKC recognition (it had spent years in the Miscellaneous class, and the stockdog breeders were satisfied with that, because they valued working ability over physical appearance, so conformation showing was of no interest to them).  BCs also started popping up in TV commercials, movies, etc., and their flashy markings and obvious intelligence made average pet-owners take notice of them. 

Again, as with so many breeds, offshoots began to develop, and some people concentrated on breeding for stock work, retaining or at least not bothered by some shyness or fearfulness; others were breeding for dogs that were more sociable with people, and which were less fearful and sensitive, but which retained the outstanding intelligence, athleticism and work ethic, either with or without emphasis on physical attributes for uniform conformation...dogs that were better suited for the agility, OB & flyball events, as well as more likely to be comfortable in family settings instead of hanging out in the barn when not working. 

So the stockdog lines tend to have the shyness, and while the conformation/performance event lines generally have less of that, both types still possess outrageous work ethic and extreme intelligence.  Therein lies the problems, however, in finding suitable owners for a Border Collie of any stripe. 

If you selected ten random people who had the average amount of knowledge on how to raise, train and live with a dog as a family companion, and placed a Border Collie pup with each of these, odds are that the majority of the dogs would end up having a LOT of problem behaviors that the people had to 'manage' for the life of the dog, and few of those people would be likely to accept another Border Collie after that experience.  Compare that to another random selection of people with the same skill set, but this time, give each one a GSD pup--and include all of the variations in this breed: the working line, the German show line, and the North American show line.  Even though each of these three have been bred with an eye toward certain differences of characteristics in each type, at the end of the experiment, you'd most likely find that the majority of the GSDs settled in as generally good, trouble-free family members, and most of these people

Very nice post Hexe!

I can understand why that comment was made to you because in essence it can be true. A GSD wants to please far more than a BC does IMO. Someone mentioned about the BC unable to focus on anything, I have found this can happen once they pass the adolescence stage, I am waiting to see if it improves with maturity LOL

I found with mine that up until adolescence he learned things easy, obeyed commands while out being exercised and wanted to please. Once he got braver he has tended to ignore commands as he doesn't have to rely on me or my female GSD to 'protect' him. Until he was 9-10 months old I never had to worry about him being off lead as he never went very far from myself or my GSD on a walk... now he is approaching 13 months old, he will run off and do his own thing, he will come to call if no other dogs around but if he sees another dog/person, selective hearing kicks in with regards to recall and I have to go after him to get him back [sometimes 200-300 yds or more] I am hoping that it is just a stage in his growing up and also will improve when he gets castrated.

I never had any problems training my GSD, she was / is a dream to take on a walk, she learnt by reward but the BC isn't food/toy orientated out on a walk so for the time being is back on a long training lead until I find a way to solve the problem.

Obviously I am speaking from my experience and have seen many BCs out walking and nearly all seem to be obsessed with their ball/toy and not focused on anything else. I wonder if what I have encountered with my BC is because he is bred from working farm dogs... 

I have and had both GSDs and BCs I have also cross bred them (mother GSD father BC) and produced fantastic hybrids that were (sadly now dead) extremely intelligent and brave. They could do anything they were as we say here "all singin an dancin" However to get to the point in question I would say they BC needs  a good trainer because of their superior intelligence they get bored easily and can work people out a lot quicker and better than GSDs. If they don't respect you then they simply ignore you. The GSD is much better at repetitive work and enjoys routine. They also don't mind orders whereas the BC will make decisions for itself given the chance.

I now have amongst GSDs, Malinois and  greyhounds Dutch Herders who are so much like my old boys in terms of intelligence, energy and desire to work its uncanny

@Rogerpodger 
The GSD is much better at repetitive work and enjoys routine. They also don't mind orders whereas the BC will make decisions for itself given the chance.

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That describes it well. Did the BCs you had go through the adolescence stage to adulthood like I have described in my post above?

I've never had focus issues with my border collies; in fact just the opposite.  One sticky-eye BC I have will stare at you or the toy for hours waiting for it to move.  The sheep dog BC's could focus on sheep all day; the agility BCs could play ball or tug all day.  I will say though, that my 11 year old BC still loves taking "joy runs" through the neighborhood when she escapes.  As soon as she sees you coming to look for her, she'll slink over to you and walk back to the house.  My GSD so far have had no desire to leave me.

When I raised a BC pup for a shepherd, the only rules I had were socialize Frank and teach him his name, to come and lie down.  The goal of raising a sheep dog was just to keep him/her out of trouble until they turned on to sheep.  When I raise my GSDs for bite sports, the list of do's and don'ts so to speak seems endless.  So in that regard, I'd say a GSD pup was harder to raise than a BC pup.

But as others have said on this thread, the average GSD pup will have less drives, energy, and temperament issues than a BC pup; which makes a GSD pup easier to raise.