Every dog? Training? Genetics? - Page 1

A recent post about show lines (don't worry this post won't be about any specific lines, nor will there be bashing) producing the best dogs for bite work had a certain comment in it.  I wanted to see your guys opinion about it, because I don't completely agree with the statement.  When I post the comment, this has nothing to do with show lines......or working lines for say.   Since each lines do have dogs capable of any type of work, obviously....   

Obviously certain dogs/lines are known for producing certain working qualities, health qualities, temperaments, etc.

Anyway, the comment was made that "It always depends how you raise and train the dogs."


While that plays a vital role in training a dog in protection, whether it be sport, police, military, etc, I don't believe that statement can be applied to every single dog regarding every single type of work.  The person who made that comment may have not meant it in a way that says..... Any Shepherd if raised properly is capable of bitework, whether it be the types of bitework I mentioned.  However I have heard a decent number of others in the show side of the Shepherd world claim that to be true. And if that is the case, if I raised my Huskies properly they would be capable of it as well. I also often hear when people are talking about a dog who doesn't seem to be doing that great in the SchH routine, bitework in general, or the dogs enthusiasm for the work in that.... They make the excuse for the dog that "It's just a matter of training."   I just can't believe that's always the case.

I want thoughts/opinions on the matter.  What do you guys think?  

I think with any type of work it does matter how you raise and train the dog.  However, I don't believe all dogs, regardless of how you raise/train are capable of every type of work....Though I do believe many will still be capable of sport.  So why do people believe it's all how you train and raise them?

Someone even told me about a dog who was "clicker trained" to do the bitework routine in SchH, but the dog really didn't have much prey drive at all for the work.  Is that really possible to train the routine by doing so?  Can dogs with little/almost no drive at all be trained so much that they actually can trial and title?  Why would people be breeding such dogs as well?  Just like some of the videos I've seen of dogs doing the protection routine in a Schutzhund trial.....They almost made me wander how the dogs even got a title at all.  Or are some of these titles with certain dogs "bought"?

Now police.......military......personal protection? I don't believe one ounce that it's all how you raise/train, IF the dog does not have what it takes to do the work in regards to genetics, drives, confidence, etc. If the dog or puppy doesn't have what it takes to do be raised and trained for the work.....I don't see how someone can say that if you raise/train them the right way.....that they will be able to do the work.  Obviously a dog you intend to do the work with has to be raised and trained a certain way, you guys get what I mean though.

Thoughts everyone? I know what I think on the matter, but I'd like to hear others as well.  And please, no showline/working line bashing.  There was more I meant to put in this post, but I forgot what else I was going to add.

One time in an older thread a percentage for the importance of genes was given round 10 % and training 90 % and I felt at the time that was wrong. I might be the last one that should give opinion when it comes to training/working a dog but nevertheless I will give my 2 cents. If genetics are not there to build on, the training for real and actual work will not be a big success, dog may do what he was trained for such as shutzhund/sport thanks to a excellent trainer but he can not be relied on in real life jobs such as police/crime fight/riot fight jobs where nerves and heart are essential. If genetics are not important then why do we always talk about the traits of various breeds, I have heared this term a million times on this board " bite is genetics", isn't the bite one pillar for the working dogs? How important is the dog's bite for the work of a dog?
Lastly what goes for training goes for raising to a good extent, I don't imagine raising a show GSD with Work GSDs and/or training him like one shall turn him into an equal in work ability, heart and nerves.

Ibrahim

Genetics are the foundation, training is the construction. Without a foundation you're only building castles in sand.

I don't know anything but, I think it's possible training is genetic, like with NVBK dogs.

BabyEagle can you elaborate on the "training is genetic"?

This has been the question forever...Bloodlines or Training...?

I think the German Shepherd in whole has the genes to do Work...What kind and how well is the question...

I think most German Shepherds can do some sort of Work but how much and at what degree is another question...

Years ago I used to think that it was all in the training...but over the years I've seen the good working bloodlines consistently out-work the others...
So...I think you must have good bloodlines to give the proper genes to make it possible to make good working dogs...We all have seen a litter of puppies...Same Dam...Same Sire...But they're all different...Different drives...Some are dominant and some are more passive...So it just makes sense that not all of these pups will make High Drive dogs...

So to me you must first have the proper bloodlines that can make it possible to give the puppy the proper tools to be able to...with good training...Work at a high level...

So...It takes both the proper bloodlines and good training to produce a High Level dog...Even a puppy that has super bloodlines and super ability...if left alone...Won't show all the ability that is possible...

But the strange thing about our German Shepherds is they all mature at different times...There are dogs that at a year old or older won't show the ability to do High Level work...and yet in another 6 to 12 months will totally change and be the best dog ever...

I think certain training is programed into the genetics somehow. Like how they bite, how they focus, how they think, how fast they trigger, kinda stuff. My Mal for example convinced me of this at ages 4 months - 9 months roughly. She would just do things outta nowhere that resembled her dad in videos. Like the first time she bit a full grown angus bull on his pummle, she did the same mouth movements exaclty like her dad. Grab hold, back n forth once, dig deeper. I could tell she knew what she was doing, but I couldn't allow it ever again. Another time is when she was closer to 6 months, we were at a pasture party horsen around (we had all our gear on IE: vests, pads, helmets, wraps etc) I was waiting my turn sitting on my tailgate, Grandeur was at my feet and a couple dudes with ATV's drove by and one slapped the side of my truck .. well, she took off and cought dude and bit his back between his shoulders. Same bite, same back and forth, same digging deeper. (Dude had his vest and wraps on so he thought it was funny) but I couldn't allow it to ever happen again. She did little (I call them daddy stunts) stunts like this often between 4 - 9 months old. Don't worry though she still bites like that, just not at free will. I think, at least, the bite, focus and trigger are a genetic programming if you care to know what I think.

I agree with you BE. 

you are absolutely right  Bay Eagle

Good point BabyEagle, and I think I agree with that as well.