E-Collar Training Theories - Page 1

I have become aware that there are 2 different thoughts on e-collar training.  I am not limiting these opinions to these particular groups as it is just the individuals but rather using it as a example.

Sport people - Some say that it is better that the dog doesn't know that the correction is coming from you so he doesn't need to see it in your hand.  Usually the decoy holds it or someone else will operate it when it is necessary.

Non sport people - The dog SHOULD know that the use of the collar is coming from you.  He should know that you are using it.

Again I know not everyone in either catagory feels that particular way but just using as an example.  What are your thoughts on this?

Sport people - Some say that it is better that the dog doesn't know that the correction is coming from you so he doesn't need to see it in your hand. Usually the decoy holds it or someone else will operate it when it is necessary.

Non sport people - The dog SHOULD know that the use of the collar is coming from you. He should know that you are using it.

When it comes to dog training and actually training a dog what is the difference between "sport people" and "non sport people?" Do the dogs know whether the handler is a "sport type guy" or a "non sport type guy."  Should I train my Police K-9 differently because he is not a sport dog?  He was an excellent sport dog before he became a "working" dog.  Did he change, should my approach to training him change?   

Bird dog hunters and bird dog competitors probably have the widest knowledge and experience in training dogs with an E collar.  I'm not sure how the dogs change from sport dogs to working dogs on the day of the trial as opposed to regular hunting.  I had the pleasure of training a few years ago with George Hitchcox, one of the best bird dog trainers and hunters in the world.  I don't hunt, but dog training is dog training.  His approach to using an E collar was very interesting and I certainly learned a few things from him.   I have also trained with many World class SchH competitors and observed many different ways to use an Ecollar effectively.  I will say a few things about Ecollar use:

First it is NOT a tool of last resort.  Anyone who views it as a tool of last resort or a last ditch effort to fix problem behaviors does not know how to use it correctly. 

The dog needs to be properly conditioned to the collar and this takes a couple of weeks.  My dogs wear the collar for 2 weeks before I ever turn it on.  You have to evaluate the dogs sensitivity levels and know how to adjust the collar.

Like any other correction device it can easily be misused by a poor lazy trainer.  Some people find it easier to push a button and fry a dog than t properly train a dog.  It is a subtle tool and can be used as a subtle reminder or to increase drive.  It is it is not always used to extinquish drive or stop a behavior. 

I have posted extensively on here before about the benefits and correct usage of Ecollars.  You can search the board for those topics.  Like any other training tool it should be used with common sense and under the supervison of an experienced trainer for novices. 

Jim

  

Ace952,
Sport or non-sport is a poor generalization.
There are situations where the dog should not know where the correction comes from as in poison proofing.
This is a high setting.

There are other times making minor corrections, a much lower setting, that the dog should know you command the correction.

I think these devices are destructive if not used correctly, and should not replace correct training.

Moons.

Most times in training, I want my dog to know exactly where the correction is coming from. If my dog can't handle the correction coming from me, well then we've got problems regardless of whatever behavior I'm looking to fix.  But other times when there is a serious danger invovled, I really don't care whether the dog knows where the correction is coming from or if he's been conditioned to the collar first (in fact it often works better if he hasn't been).  There's training and then there's safety...

if you lack timing , feeling , and ability to read a dog , neither clicker or Ecollar will help you , with that difference that improper clickeruse is pretty harmless

Thanks.  Probably shouldn't have used that wording.

I said it b/c I know with my Sch club they all use e-collars.  The handler doesn't use the e-collar but rather someone else watching OR the decoy uses it.  Their reasoning was that the dog shouldn't know that the correction is coming from you.  Now this was used especially when the dog is running the blinds.

And yes the other school of thought is that the dog should know that you have it and it knows that it is coming from you.
Jim - I am guessing that you have the collar on the dog for 2 weeks before even turning it as so that the dog gets used to having it on but more importantly, he doesn't equate the collar with pain? 

 

If my dog can't handle the correction coming from me, well then we've got problems regardless of whatever behavior I'm looking to fix.
 

I want to say they mentioned this but it has been awhile and I can't remember.  Something to the effect that the dog may work differently on the field if you are the one always using the remote and also your timing could be off and sometimes you can't see a mistake while someone else can so that is why someone else should operate it.

But other times when there is a serious danger invovled, I really don't care whether the dog knows where the correction is coming from or if he's been conditioned to the collar first (in fact it often works better if he hasn't been). There's training and then there's safety...

That is a problem, IMO.  The collar will not work better on a dog that has not been properly introduced to it.  That is a recipe for disaster and will result in other problems down the line.  My dog and I get out into situations with serious danger on a  regular basis, that is our job.  My dog is trained for most situations, however an ecollar will not will be a substitute for poor foundation training nor will it save a dog from serious danger.   This is that last resort mentality.  We really need to move away form that type of thinking. 

Nothing personal, please do not be offended. 


JMO FWIW,


Jim
 


 

Jim - I am guessing that you have the collar on the dog for 2 weeks before even turning it as so that the dog gets used to having it on but more importantly, he doesn't equate the collar with pain? 

No Ace, so he doesn't become collar smart.  I also leave the collar on for 2 hours before and after training.  My dog rarely gets corrected on a high level, it is a finesse and polishing tool.  My dogs learns motivationally and rarely gets corrections.  But I am always available to enforce any command given.  For the new handlers you must be aware of the consequences of pain induced corrections.  You have to understand timing, praise and reward and the proper ratios.  It is criticial to understand how to deliver an effective correction, the timing that is needed and role of the praise and reward.  When the correct behavior is shown the praise and reward is more important to the dog than the correction.  This is something that you really need to learn as well Ace.  Correcting a dog without the proper praise and reward is detrimental to your training and relationship with the dog. 

I have gone through the proper use of the collar before and the correct way to introduce a dog to the collar.  Ace, you can search those older threads.  No secrets here, just not going to repost the same info over and over for you.  If you find the posts and have a specific question for me I'll be happy to answer it. 

Jim





  

Jim, I'm not offended and see your point.  Maybe the context matters?  The dog that wore the e-collar (without conditioning) to prevent a dangerous behavior is not a dog that I actually train for any sort of sport or work.  It is my house pet who knows nothing beyond sit, down, shake, come here and he was doing something extremely dangerous that I needed stopped yesterday.  E-collar + management worked for him.  I don't really have any intentions of using an e-collar for anything else with that dog and he hasn't worn it in over a year.  It was not a last resort for me because it was a new behavior and I went straight to the e-collar.  It was not a matter of trying to motivate the dog to do an incompatible behavior or trying to train a new behavior or finesse something but simply you may not ever do that again.  It was used as a straight up aversive, correction, punisher, whatever word you like, not as a negative reinforcement.  I would probably not do this with my young dog because I do have a few things I plan to use the e-collar for later on, so with him I definitely want to do the proper conditioning and foundation so that he understands that type of training and it is clear and fair to him. I completely agree the e-collar (or any tool) should not be used as a "last resort".  Same with a prong or anything really.  Use the tool that makes the most sense for the dog and the behavior.  If one is not comfortable with a certain tool, then don't use it at all.  Better not to use it than try to use it and not be comfortable with it.


Something to the effect that the dog may work differently on the field if you are the one always using the remote and also your timing could be off and sometimes you can't see a mistake while someone else can so that is why someone else should operate it.

Ace, I understand this reasoning I just don't personally agree with it.  If my timing is off then I need to learn to fix it, not hand my remote or my line over to someone else.  I personally am big on training my dogs myself and learning to become a better trainer (which mostly involves better timing).  My main motivation is training for the sake of training, not to get my dog perfect or train something new really fast or win trophies (I'm not saying this is what you mean, just throwing that out there....).  I realize that I will make mistakes, sometimes BIG mistakes, and it will set me and my dog back some time to re-train (often it takes me longer to recognize and address a mistake than it takes the dog to be re-trained) and maybe even make a few mistakes I cannot fix but for me that is just part of owning and training dogs.

VKGSD's,
I understand. 

Ace, the only time you would hand the remote to someone else is when the handler can not see the dog to correct it.  For example the blind search when the handler can not physically see the dog round the blind.  This would be for a dirty dog that lacks the proper hold and bark technique and needs to be "cleaned up."  The other time is when the handler is new and lacks skill or timing then the decoy may correct for the out, for example. 

The dog should realize that the correction comes form the handler. The handler's voice controls the dog, not the decoy and not the ecollar, prong or anything else.  The dog needs to realize that if it disobeys a command with in 2 seconds a consistent correction or enforcement is coming.  When the dog realizes this consistent method of praise and correction training becomes easy.  My dog knows exactly where the correction comes from.....ME.  I pair the prong and Ecollar on low to start so there is no confusion.