Early Spay-Neuter Risks & the Rebuttal & your contracts - Page 1

Hi, I have noticed that some breeders have in their contracts that for any joint guarantee to be valid, the dog must not be spayed/neutered before 24 months of age. Below is one of the links discussing the risks and then a rebuttal, actually vice versa, rebuttal is first and then the article on the risks.

How do you feel about this now if you are still going to tell buyers that they cannot spay or neuter before 24 months of age? I  mean are you going to take that clause out? What if the female ends up with pyometra? If the buyer new about the rebuttal they might come back to you for compensation.

The question is really on the joint guarantees, but pyo was on my mind when I saw some of these contracts.

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf
Rebuttal to “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete”
Lisa M Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief
Surgical Sciences Sect Dept of Vet Small Animal Clinical Sci
College of Vet Med and Biom Sciences Texas A&M Univ College Station TX  
 
 
Early Spay Neuter Risks:
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

No I don't care either way, but I am curious. You would be basically telling someone what they can or can't do with their dog regarding a sensitive topic and their could be ill effects either way. Wouldn't it be best to let the owner decide?

That rebuttal was asinine in many ways, as anyone who has done lengthy research via UNBIASED sources would agree. In order to analyze "facts" and statistics, one needs to examine the possible agendas/biases of the individuals presenting them.

As it pertains to your contract question/allegation, if I have to take care of any issues arising from it, then I get to decide on the carefully calculated risks. It's quite simple. All puppies are mine before they are anyone else's, and since I am completely responsible for the LONGTERM overall well-being of the dog, it is my responsibility to place in an optimal situation. The risks FAR FAR FAR outweigh the benefits of spaying and neutering prior to 24months, so quite frankly, if someone wanted to do this to the dog, especially before 24mos., I wouldn't sell them the dog period, nevermind screwing around with a guarantee/contract. 

I like this article: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf 

And? How would one determine who is biased and who is not? Not just which article one likes.
I agree MY PUPS ARE MINE too, but I want to do what is best for the dog thus I am looking for documentation that is valid on both sides of the argument.

Does anyone have anything that is concrete???
 

What I am asking is what would you consider biased? Any vet that wants to make $ on a surgery?
Both writers list their reference sources and it seems people can just pick which they want to believe. Has any breeder or you done that lengthy research that you mention?
I did ask for opinions, but now I want a concrete answer as to which is correct.

If someone does not like  contract, they can buy from someone else. If you agree to a contract, stick to it because you gave your word.


   I have only had one nuetered male out of my 8 in my life with problems from it and he is a rescued puppy mill small breed that was neutered before six months of age. His bladder is small some say might be the early nueter not proven. All with the exception of one of those males were nuetered before one year old. The last male was nuetered after I got him out of a shelter and used him for sar and he was three years old. I have worked altered dogs in search and rescue with no problem and I have only has medical issues with the one small dog. I also have noted it does not stop most male behavior to fix them. Training does that. I have had them develop full body and natural growth with plenty of drive when nuetered before two.

I agree one has many options of who to buy from. Thanks GSDNewbie for sharing your experiences. I will give you mine and they actually fit under the "asinine rebuttal" theory.

1. female had one heat cycle, purchased from one of those breeders who wants the dog ret'd if they have bad hips. Well she did, severe @ 10 months or so of age, maybe 12 months, goes back a long time. She was spayed after OFA confirmation even though it was obvious w/o their evaluation. Needless to say we kept her and we spayed her. She developed spay incontenience shortly thereafter.  We had a Brittany way way back who had no heat cycles and was spayed at 6months or maybe even 5 months, never had any issues with bladder control, an adopted lab who was spayed around the same age, no issues with that, no cancers, lived to 13 or 14.  Our other dogs were spayed  over the age of 2 and we did have a couple develop mammary tumors. We had a pyo in a female who was just 13 months of age who was subsequently spayed. Lost another one of our girls to hemangiosarcoma and another not related (one show lines, one working lines) to that too. the one was spayed at about 7 and the other was spayed at about 2 yrs of age.

I thought it was pretty clear based on reading all articles what the biases were and where they lie. Consider who wrote what, who they were taught by, what agendas each party along the way may have had, etc. Personally, I've spent no less than a decade reading anything I could get my hands on about the topic because I was trying to form a better argument against it for people who don't seem to see the obvious. It's all opinion and in the eye of the beholder. Newbie says she's had dogs develop full body who were neutered before two. Depends on the breed, I say, and I still say I can tell a neutered dog by looking at it (in person is much easier than a photo). People think their dogs look "fine"; I think they look like crap-- all pickle-shaped, spindly-legged w/no muscle tone, high in the rear, etc.  I have had to neuter one dog, ever, and I was totally sickened by the changes his body went through in just a few months. I should've photographically documented it. It was absolutely revolting. I currently have one old TerrierX who is neutered (got him from AC) and he has padding on his ribs, but his bones all along his spine and back protrude, all the way down to his hips. He has ZERO muscle. Sure, some of it's age; he's about 11, but my intact older dogs never got like that. You can't show someone what they refuse to see.

If you don't think there's anything  concrete there, then I'm sure you'll be fine adopting one of the millions of unfortunate rescues who are spayed and neutered, and chances are you'll never notice the difference.

I have to say, you seem to have had an awful lot of dogs with problems, 1GSD1. Perhaps there's something else going on and it's not as simple as spaying and neutering? Also, I have to note that your stories coincide with why NOT to neuter and spay...hemangiosarcoma, for example. You say you lost two SPAYED females to that. Is that not what the last article (the one I "like") discusses? Did I interpret what you wrote incorrectly?

I do not think it can be blamed on any one denomentator unless you keep a study group of dogs under exact control groups and test groups all getting same diet and excersize and all of same lines. I do think there are too many factors to say it is because they were nuetered. A balanced diet IMO reflects much of the bone development and I would guess that may be an issue before saying nuetering was the cause or say someone who keeps dogs on hard surfaces all their lives or works them to hard on young dog. I would not look at nuetering a dog as quick culprit for problems against bone and joints.



this is my boston nuetered at 4 months






choc lab we rescued nuetered at 6 months old




This is one of my sar rotts nuetered at 8 months old



none with joint issues nor issues in building a proper body or other breed characteristics. I have seen no issues in nuetering dogs that are well kept personally.

Dear Jenni, the dogs I had were purchased from breeders years ago and yes you did misinterpret.

The two dogs that died of hemangiosarcoma at ages 11 and 12 were not spayed young. One was 7 and was was at least two.

I am college educated and I'm sorry but I must have missed where the obviousness is in the biased opinions.

I too can tell when a male was neutered young, but that is not the issue at point.


When I posted I had a feeling that what I was hoping for wouldn't happen. I was hoping to get some breeders say, "geez, I guess there are two sides to everything. How can we find out what the majority of the research concluded?" "This is what I have concluded to believe and these are my reasons…." I really didn't want the reply with the caps that insinuated an attitude that "only I am a good breeder or better yet, I am the best breeder and I do this and I do that etc." I really don't give a hoot.  As a matter of fact, I won't waste my time replying to arrogant comments on the subject.

If you have something concrete in your decade of study, I'm sure others would like to hear it.

SEE YA missy!

LOL! The article discusses EARLY spay/neuter, not bitches spayed at 7 and over 2!! Just to clarify the ages again for anyone else reading this.

I guess this will just die out as there seems to be no concrete proof on either side of the argument.