police/schutzhund prospect - Page 1

This question has probably been posed in one way or another, but there are things i would still have to have clarified. do you look for the same attributes in a sport dog and a police dog? everybody in the sport seems to like the aggressive dog that focus on the helper not the sleeve, but the sport wants the dog to focus on the sleeve... to me this seems a contradiction... what about the sharpness? is it desired in the sport dog? how about the police dog? what do you test in a young green dog bound to do police work/sport? do you think the sport is creating another german shepherd altogether? thank you, kosta

GENERALLY, ALTHOUGH WITH EXCEPTIONS, THE ATTRIBUTES IN A GREAT SPORT DOG ARE VERY SIMILAR. I WILL CLARIFY THAT YOUR COMMENT ABOUT "EVERYBODY IN THE SPORT SEEMS TO LIKE THE AGGRESSIVE DOG..." IS VERY INTERESTING. ALTHOUGH AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY PREFER THE AGGRESSIVE DOG AS LONG AS IT IS THEIRS, WE FIND THAT IN A SPORT CLUB MUCH NEGATIVITY IS ALWAYS POINTED TOWARDS TRULY AGGRESSIVE DOGS WHEN PEOPLE ARE UNLUCKY ENOUGH TO NOT HAVE A DOG LIKE THAT THEMSELVES. I MUST NOTE THAT MANY PEOPLE DO THE SPORT FOR A TRUE FUN HOBBY AND PAST TIME AND A TRULY AGGRESSIVE DOG WOULD NOT BE IDEAL FOR THESE PEOPLE. THE FUN FACTOR IN EVERYDAY LIFE I AM SURE WOULD BE MUCH LESS. I AM ALSO NOT SURE THAT THE SPORT WANTS TO TEACH THE DOG TO FOCUS ON THE SLEEVE BUT RATHER TEACH THE DOG, FOR THE HELPERS SAFETY, THAT THE SLEEVE IS THE PLACE TO FOCUS THE BITE. FOR MANY DOGS IN THE SPORT THIS HAS TAKEN MUCH WORK. SOME SHARPNESS IN ALL SITUATIONS IS GREAT. IT LOOKS GREAT(REAL) ON THE FIELD AND ON THE STREETS AND IS REAL TO THE DOG. TOO MUCH AND YOU MAY ELIMINATE THE ENVIRONMENTALLY STABLE QUALITIES PEOPLE LIKE AND THE DOG NEEDS TO OPERATE EFFECTIVELY AS WELL. THE ONLY COMMENT ABOUT CREATING "ANOTHER GERMAN SHEPHERD ALTOGETHER" IS THAT YES THE SPORT HAS DOGS THAT OPERATE FROM ONE END OF THE LINE(PURE DEFENSE) TO THE OTHER(PURE PREY)AND ALL PARTS IN BETWEEN. THE SPORT IS A BREEDING SUITABILITY TEST BUT SOME OF THE BEST TRAINERS CAN MAKE AN UNSUITABLE BREEDING DOG LOOK LIKE A GREAT SPORT DOG. THIS STILL DOES NOT MEAN THE DOG SHOULD BE BRED.

Many sport dogs are just that when the sleeve is removed they being prey driven fade. A well balanced dog should have prey, defense and fight drive. Some sport dogs while sucessful in the sport lack the other two drives and could not do protection without someone being in a suit or have a sleeve. It is sometimes hard for someone to see the difference. A well balanced dog and with the right hardness will guard the helper and not just the sleeve. Schutzhund is about control sometimes the harder dogs may not be as smooth at trial as the softer prey driven dogs. Schutzhund is a test for suitable breeding and the control is part of the Schutzhund test. The test of the dog with well balanced drives is a clear head, good nerves with the hardness.

Whether it is an exceptional sport dog or a super "street K-9" there are certain qualities that MUST be there. In my opinion, you must have temperament, good structure, good drives and honest, knowledgeable people in your K-9 program/Schutzhund Club that can help to mold and lay a SOLID foundation for a dog and handler to build on. Without foundation, drive, temperament and good structure, the battle to being exceptional/productive "in the field" or "on the street" is uphill and quite possibly unachieveable. Many jurisdictions wanting to put on a K-9 team do not have the monies nor support/training at hand to put out what many of you think should be the great "street dog". They have to go on what they have been told by a "professional" to help them select handlers and potential K-9's. Nonetheless, some of these handlers work hard, do the best they can with what they have and many have to learn as they go(sometimes, basically-on their own). Some make it, some don't. Having an administration/administrators that are supportive of a K-9 program is, I feel, the key to a K-9 program's success, good dogs or not. Some programs are finished before they start because the departments/offices are sold a "bill of goods". Both my husband and I are K-9 handlers for our Sheriff's Office and our "Street Dogs" are, also, Schutzhund titled(Sch3). We have the luxury of being able to participate in both arenas and have found that the Schutzhund work compliments the police work and vice-versa. Not all K-9 handlers are so lucky as we are to have an active schutzhund club so close-by. We, also, have Sheriff's Office Administration that understands and appreciates the importance of a large and well-trained K-9 Unit(12 K-9 teams). To go back to the original question, I feel the initial qualities to be sought out in a green dog are essentially the same, but the key to ultimate success(once a good dog with the above qualities is located) , whether it be the field or the street, depends on support, desire and people around to lay a solid foundation, then build on that foundation. Kathy

can you "teach" a dog to be hard? sounds harder dogs have less control, or are more difficult to control than the "softer" trial dogs... from your comments it seems the prey driven dog is more suitable for trial sport than a harder dog which could be more suitable for police work... it seems the middle balance is difficult to find. I've seen a lot of nice sport dogs who wouldn't be able to tell a threat when breaking into their house of car... do you teach a dog to be suspicion? as far as trial dogs, isn't it true that the trial dog is having fun and doesn't see the threat to go into defense?

To Kathy, This is what I like to see K9 handlers with the knowledge it makes the world of difference in the team. So many officers we see were given a three or four day certification with the dog and you know the results. Most have never seen a Schutzhund event as well same thing in the Military. The K9 officers are under paid as well and some call us wanting a dog and tell me their superior does not want to support their desires to be a k9 officer. Some even call and say they have to buy their own dog which I think is sad as well. One officer in our town has always wanted to be a K9 handler had a good dog from us suitable to do the work he worked with us training his dog from puppy and the chief gave the job to someone else who he was friends with. The best k9 Police officers are good dog people to start with and have particpated in actually training with and selecting the dog. Nothing better to me than to see a good handler/dog team we need more of them in every city in the US. The second question from Makgas you cannot teach a dog to be hard this is the temperament of the dog which is entirely genetic.

To AlabamaK9 As there is everywhere, unfortunately, there is politics in K-9. My husband and I own our own dogs, by choice, as we breed and show/trial the dogs. The dogs in the rest of the Unit are owned by the County. ALL are selected on temperament, drive and structure--then matched to a handler . The experienced handlers may be involved in the selection process for a new partner, usually not new handlers. The handler/K-9 training is never-ending, The support from the public, the administrators, our local schutzhund club and the individuals from within the Unit itself all help produce a very productive K-9 Unit of good teams! We are VERY fortunate.

Kathy, You are lucky and I bet your area the dogs are doing well due to the process you have in place. I owned a retired Police dog officer Muddy-Do for years he had his eye shot out during a encounter and he was a joy till the day he died. He is acutally what started me and attracted me to the working line of shepherds.