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by Rik on 15 March 2011 - 23:03
bob, can't help it. that made me laugh.
molly, what is the problem you see with me. I don't breed and have not since 1998. And if you think I am going to tip toe around your ass or anyone like you who breed for the bank account, then I guess we really need to get to know each other better.
Rick Atchley
molly, what is the problem you see with me. I don't breed and have not since 1998. And if you think I am going to tip toe around your ass or anyone like you who breed for the bank account, then I guess we really need to get to know each other better.
Rick Atchley
by sueincc on 15 March 2011 - 23:03
Molly & Blackthorne: Sorry for getting so defensive and over reacting, I completely understand your position, and you guys don't know me from adam. It's just a sensitive issue with me, coupled with the fact I am having a particularly crappy day, sorry for taking it out on you guys.
by Fenrir on 15 March 2011 - 23:03
Ok so I am really, really green...and have just barely started to post. Let me give you my opinion as someone both new to the breed and new to the world of working dogs, GSDs and the rules by which they are bred.
I bought my first shepherd Rikku because my entire life I had wanted a GSD, to me there was no other dog. My father on the other hand thought they were too "Mean" so instead I got Collies, which granted I loved but were not my GSD. Long story short at 27 years old for the first time in my life I was able to finally own a German Shepherd and it was one of the happiest days of my entire life.
I knew nothing, and I mean nothing at all, I figured, hey she is AKC registered that must mean something...I was wrong, I looked into different things to do with my girl and even looked into Schutzhund with my new puppy. I took her to the club and she failed miserably because of her temperament which was/is weak to say the least. I was kinda humiliated and felt suckered from my dogs breeder. I vowed I would return to do Schutzhund and that next dog I got would only happen after very good research and only after I learned about this amazing breed.
I put hours, many, many hours into it, I read books I looked into the history and Max Von Stephanitz and learned about how amazing this dog truly is and how what we have is a gift of an animal that we should do our best to preserve and enhance where possible. I DID end up getting my second dog, just barley actually and this time I did it right.
Now what this all has to do with this post is I believe regardless of if we sell limited or not so long as the dogs are the ones at the heart of the matter and what they were made for is not lost that either way is completely acceptable and I would have bought my dog from either limited or not so long as the breeder was trustworthy and what they were aiming for was to further the breed and keeping it the amazing dog it is.
In closing, and like I said being so new to all this I am kinda scared to even post anything but meh, here goes I do wish to breed, to help put more responsible breeders out there. However I will NOT breed any dog until I have met the standard that the creator of the breed himself instilled. My dog WILL be Sch titled before, will be old enough, will be hip certified and will have proved herself worthy. We owe it to the breed, I personally will plan to breed under limited contract for the reasons already mentioned however have no issue with those that do not. Hopefully I do not get too flamed hah, we all have to start somewhere right?? :)
I bought my first shepherd Rikku because my entire life I had wanted a GSD, to me there was no other dog. My father on the other hand thought they were too "Mean" so instead I got Collies, which granted I loved but were not my GSD. Long story short at 27 years old for the first time in my life I was able to finally own a German Shepherd and it was one of the happiest days of my entire life.
I knew nothing, and I mean nothing at all, I figured, hey she is AKC registered that must mean something...I was wrong, I looked into different things to do with my girl and even looked into Schutzhund with my new puppy. I took her to the club and she failed miserably because of her temperament which was/is weak to say the least. I was kinda humiliated and felt suckered from my dogs breeder. I vowed I would return to do Schutzhund and that next dog I got would only happen after very good research and only after I learned about this amazing breed.
I put hours, many, many hours into it, I read books I looked into the history and Max Von Stephanitz and learned about how amazing this dog truly is and how what we have is a gift of an animal that we should do our best to preserve and enhance where possible. I DID end up getting my second dog, just barley actually and this time I did it right.
Now what this all has to do with this post is I believe regardless of if we sell limited or not so long as the dogs are the ones at the heart of the matter and what they were made for is not lost that either way is completely acceptable and I would have bought my dog from either limited or not so long as the breeder was trustworthy and what they were aiming for was to further the breed and keeping it the amazing dog it is.
In closing, and like I said being so new to all this I am kinda scared to even post anything but meh, here goes I do wish to breed, to help put more responsible breeders out there. However I will NOT breed any dog until I have met the standard that the creator of the breed himself instilled. My dog WILL be Sch titled before, will be old enough, will be hip certified and will have proved herself worthy. We owe it to the breed, I personally will plan to breed under limited contract for the reasons already mentioned however have no issue with those that do not. Hopefully I do not get too flamed hah, we all have to start somewhere right?? :)
by Rik on 16 March 2011 - 00:03
Fenrir, there is absolutely nothing you should be "scared" or concerned about. You just need to decide who you are and have the balls to stick to it.
There are all kinds of breeders here. You got Jeff, he breeds for himself and tells the world to kiss his ass. My kind of breeder.
You got molly, who breeds dogs from top programs, but only for the profit in it.
Then you got folks here like alaman, bob mc. and others who do not have websites. never promote their dogs, do not advertise their breeding's and are yet turning out as good a GSD as available in the U.S.
Who are you planning to be.
Rik
There are all kinds of breeders here. You got Jeff, he breeds for himself and tells the world to kiss his ass. My kind of breeder.
You got molly, who breeds dogs from top programs, but only for the profit in it.
Then you got folks here like alaman, bob mc. and others who do not have websites. never promote their dogs, do not advertise their breeding's and are yet turning out as good a GSD as available in the U.S.
Who are you planning to be.
Rik
by eichenluft on 16 March 2011 - 02:03
Sue, no problem. Rick, no you don't know me, and you don't know what I'm breeding for, you don't know my program and you don't know my dogs. You are being an ass, in case noone has told you that yet. Now you know.
molly
molly
by eichenluft on 16 March 2011 - 02:03
Rick, your kind of breeder is Jeff, who bred two underage, untitled, non-health checked or hip/elbow rated dogs together to make puppies "just to see how they turn out". That's great Rick - really great. SUPER. Keep up the good work promoting responsible breeders who work much harder than that to "put out" quality animals.
by hexe on 16 March 2011 - 03:03
EKvonEarnhardt wrote:
"But all of this matters no more to Sam as she informed me last night she will be selling the female.
I think in her case this will be best for her and the dog. The dog can go and be just a pet as intended for in the first place. Sam can go and find a breeder that will sell her full registration papers on a pet dog. I think Sam now understand you have to becareful on what you ask for cause there are breeders that actually listen to what the buyer is wanting and will only give you that. "
How very, very sad for this young dog, a dog that this owner felt was terrific enough *right now* to warrant the breeder converting the LR to full registration...but suddenly, because the breeder won't do it *right now*--because this terrific 11 month old dog isn't old enough to certify hips & elbows, and does NOT have any titles--this poor dog has become unwanted by the person she bonded with.
And how very sad for the breed as well, since the original poster clearly wasn't understanding that the litter her pup came from did NOT 'all have genetic faults', or that an AKC S.T.A.R. Puppy award and a CGC are NOT titles in any way, shape or form (or didn't WANT to understand). If she understood those things, or wanted to do so, there'd be no reason to discard this dog right now, because there was plenty of time ahead to have the hips and elbows certified, and to obtain some actual *titles* before the time came to consider breeding this dog. So now she'll recycle this dog to someone else, and find a breeder who will sell her a bitch with full registration, and will probably breed the poor thing on it's first heat cycle, because she clearly can't wait to become a 'breeder'. And heaven knows the world needs more 'breeders' of that ilk.
I'm no animal rights advocate of the PETA/HSUS kind, nor a fan of the government in anyone's business (as long as that business isn't illegal) but I have to say that lately I'm really starting to think that ANYONE who breeds so much as one litter should have be licensed by their respective state, paying a hefty annual fee and being held to a standard that calls for yearly unannounced facility inspections, and requires breed-appropriate health and soundness certifications for the breeding animals...maybe that would discourage a portion of the people who have no business breeding dogs in the first place from entering the arena, and there'd be that many less poorly-bred dogs in shelters and rescues.
"But all of this matters no more to Sam as she informed me last night she will be selling the female.
I think in her case this will be best for her and the dog. The dog can go and be just a pet as intended for in the first place. Sam can go and find a breeder that will sell her full registration papers on a pet dog. I think Sam now understand you have to becareful on what you ask for cause there are breeders that actually listen to what the buyer is wanting and will only give you that. "
How very, very sad for this young dog, a dog that this owner felt was terrific enough *right now* to warrant the breeder converting the LR to full registration...but suddenly, because the breeder won't do it *right now*--because this terrific 11 month old dog isn't old enough to certify hips & elbows, and does NOT have any titles--this poor dog has become unwanted by the person she bonded with.
And how very sad for the breed as well, since the original poster clearly wasn't understanding that the litter her pup came from did NOT 'all have genetic faults', or that an AKC S.T.A.R. Puppy award and a CGC are NOT titles in any way, shape or form (or didn't WANT to understand). If she understood those things, or wanted to do so, there'd be no reason to discard this dog right now, because there was plenty of time ahead to have the hips and elbows certified, and to obtain some actual *titles* before the time came to consider breeding this dog. So now she'll recycle this dog to someone else, and find a breeder who will sell her a bitch with full registration, and will probably breed the poor thing on it's first heat cycle, because she clearly can't wait to become a 'breeder'. And heaven knows the world needs more 'breeders' of that ilk.
I'm no animal rights advocate of the PETA/HSUS kind, nor a fan of the government in anyone's business (as long as that business isn't illegal) but I have to say that lately I'm really starting to think that ANYONE who breeds so much as one litter should have be licensed by their respective state, paying a hefty annual fee and being held to a standard that calls for yearly unannounced facility inspections, and requires breed-appropriate health and soundness certifications for the breeding animals...maybe that would discourage a portion of the people who have no business breeding dogs in the first place from entering the arena, and there'd be that many less poorly-bred dogs in shelters and rescues.
by Bob McKown on 16 March 2011 - 11:03
hexe:
I understand your feelings and the thoughts are valid but government involvement isn,t always a good thing. There is a organization that if they wanted to at very little cost could make a world of difference in the breed as far as breeding goes that would be the AKC if they would only implement minimum breeding requirements before they would issue papers on a litter say Minimum of 2 years of age with current health checks and a passing OFA rating you would see a vast change in breeding. Just remember just like limited regs people will still breed what they want when they want but the above would be a great step forward.
I understand your feelings and the thoughts are valid but government involvement isn,t always a good thing. There is a organization that if they wanted to at very little cost could make a world of difference in the breed as far as breeding goes that would be the AKC if they would only implement minimum breeding requirements before they would issue papers on a litter say Minimum of 2 years of age with current health checks and a passing OFA rating you would see a vast change in breeding. Just remember just like limited regs people will still breed what they want when they want but the above would be a great step forward.
by FlashBang on 16 March 2011 - 14:03
(I realize I have 8+ pages to read)
RIK: "But from the perspective of a buyer, what is it that induces one to accept limited registration on a pup. Reduced price? I would really be interested in hearing about this from the buyers point of view."
I consider limited registration when purchasing a puppy if I have no intentions of breeding in the future nor showing in conformation. To me it shows that the breeder [somewhat] cares about the dog he/she produces and what happens to the pups as well.
While I would hope that necessary testing was performed on the dogs prior to breeding, I would commend a breeder for saying, "sorry, I'm not lifting the limited registration because this pairing produced genetic defects in the dog." I would, however, want to know if they were TRUE genetic defects or the result of environmental factors.
KELLY M SHAW: "his is however the last litter that we will pay for the limited to be transferred over to a full. It is a $35 cost (per puppy) through AKC to get this done."
That is rather insightful. A co-worker of mine purchased a GSD from a breeder who had limited reg on the dog. The breeder said she would lift to full reg. when the dog reached two years old, and would "charge what AKC charges her: $400." I'll be sure to pass this along.
** Now that I got all the way to page 8.....basic rundown of the "story:" **
"Sam" came on here complaining that the breeder of her puppy refuses to lift limited registration due to genetic defects in previous litter, but allegedly breeder is still breeding the combination. "Sam" stated she "titled" her 11 mths old dog (two titles) and thinks dog is the bee's knees.
Breeder posted her side which basically disputed everything "Sam" said: limited WOULD be lifted if certain criteria met. One pup out of previous pairing had HD. "Sam" has no titles on dog just S.T.A.R. and CGC (awards, not titles.)
No word from "Sam."
Breeder updates saying "Sam" contacted breeder and said she ("Sam") was selling the female in initial question.
The End :) (except for some other squabbling, etc.)
RIK: "But from the perspective of a buyer, what is it that induces one to accept limited registration on a pup. Reduced price? I would really be interested in hearing about this from the buyers point of view."
I consider limited registration when purchasing a puppy if I have no intentions of breeding in the future nor showing in conformation. To me it shows that the breeder [somewhat] cares about the dog he/she produces and what happens to the pups as well.
While I would hope that necessary testing was performed on the dogs prior to breeding, I would commend a breeder for saying, "sorry, I'm not lifting the limited registration because this pairing produced genetic defects in the dog." I would, however, want to know if they were TRUE genetic defects or the result of environmental factors.
KELLY M SHAW: "his is however the last litter that we will pay for the limited to be transferred over to a full. It is a $35 cost (per puppy) through AKC to get this done."
That is rather insightful. A co-worker of mine purchased a GSD from a breeder who had limited reg on the dog. The breeder said she would lift to full reg. when the dog reached two years old, and would "charge what AKC charges her: $400." I'll be sure to pass this along.
** Now that I got all the way to page 8.....basic rundown of the "story:" **
"Sam" came on here complaining that the breeder of her puppy refuses to lift limited registration due to genetic defects in previous litter, but allegedly breeder is still breeding the combination. "Sam" stated she "titled" her 11 mths old dog (two titles) and thinks dog is the bee's knees.
Breeder posted her side which basically disputed everything "Sam" said: limited WOULD be lifted if certain criteria met. One pup out of previous pairing had HD. "Sam" has no titles on dog just S.T.A.R. and CGC (awards, not titles.)
No word from "Sam."
Breeder updates saying "Sam" contacted breeder and said she ("Sam") was selling the female in initial question.
The End :) (except for some other squabbling, etc.)
by Jenni78 on 16 March 2011 - 14:03
That $400 may also include the difference in price between a full reg. puppy and a pet price puppy.
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