Would you consider this "normal" GSD behavior? - Page 1

I have a 1 1/2 old male GSD. He was shy when I first got him at 3 months so I socialized him extensively. By nine months he was doing Open/novice obiediance and loving it all from a buckle collar. then one day he was lunged at by another dog in class. the instructor had me put a chain collar on him and we set him up and i corrected him. During the following few months he started acting aggressive and lunging at other dogs. We hired a behavorist who put us on one of those positive reinforcment dominance programs. then one day during the first few weeks of this, a person who is know to the dog stood very quickly leaning over the dog and was biten,punctured the skin. Behavorist indicated it was expected as part of the program. Since that time we have been going to trainer to trainer and as of a few days ago the dog bite again. this time with unfamilar trainer who was checking his attention skills by playing with him on the floor. I feel I need to advocate on the dogs behalf and think maybe we have been "flooding" with too much desensitization. I will not consider killing the dog or hitting him. Its is my firm beleif that the aggressive traditional methods got him this way.Comments

I am not sure what you mean by the positive reinforment dominance program. However, I would suggest that, in fact, you have not had good help. Any dog who bites in the situations you are describing does not know a real threat from one that is not real, or has been poorly socialized, has a faulty temperament or has an owner that does not know how to set limits. I strongly suggest you find someone who has better experience with GSDs and get some help. A good place to start might be a local Schutzhund club. The bottom line is that if this dogs bites someone else, you will probably end up with a serious legal problem and the dog may well end up being put down. There is no excuse for biting in the situations you are describing. Your job as the "advocate' for the dog is to make certain it is safe in society and that you know how to make sure this never happens again. It is exactly this type of situation that gives the breed a bad name. One need not necessarily put the dog down, or hit the dog, but clearly you do not know how to set limits, nor do the people you have worked with. It is rare, but yes, for a variety of reasons, there are some dogs who can not live safely in society. In this case, you have an obligation to keep the dog out of society or to put him down. If you want to tell us more about what has gone on, the training you have been doing etc., perhaps we can make additional suggestions.

"then one day he was lunged at by another dog in class. the instructor had me put a chain collar on him and we set him up and i corrected him. During the following few months he started acting aggressive and lunging at other dogs." OK, I'm confused--YOUR dog was lunged at by another dog, so the trainer had you switch your dog over to a chain collar, set the dog up to be lunged at, and then had you correct him?!? If this is what was done, I'm at a loss to understand what the trainer was attempting to do...teach your dog to sit there and remain completely unresponsive while another dog to lunges at him?

I agree you need to find a a SchH club or trainer who will work with you. I might not be reading this all correctly but I have to agree with "hodie" that there is a lack of leadership on your part. I am on a different board and seem to see many problems with owners when their males become 1 1/2 - 2 years old. They aren't puppies any more they are adult dogs and will either out right challenge you or be a little more deceptive about taking control. What was the reaction of your dog when he was lunged at and what was your reaction? There are many different schools of thought when it comes to dog training. Are you currently training at an AKC club? I am not putting down all AKC clubs, but tell me how many other GSD's are in your class?

This is not good behavior, or normal behavior. Your dog has a weak temperament. Forget trying to correct it, this is beyond your ability. Instead, focus on controlling the enviroment around your dog. Don't allow anyone with a certain space, don't allow dogs within a certain space. It is your responsibility to get others away from your dog. Your dog can live a good life without strangers petting him. This is not the ideal situation, but it is the safest for your dog and others.

I would like to know if this dog's biting was excited nipping or a serius attack? Either is of couse no excuse for an inappropriate bite but the way to approach it would be a lot different.

In the county I lived in for the last 12 yrs we have a dangerous dog law. There are three people on the board a local vet, a non-dog person (local dentist) and a animal behaviorist (being me). We've had many dogs come before the board. I can tell you, if your dog came before the board with this many bites and your unwillingness to do what it takes to stop the behavior, we would have voted to put your dog down. I tell you this because this is a serious problem you are talking about. You need to fix it not play with it!!!!

I think what you were referring to when you say "positive reinforcement dominance programs" is that the dog has been trained with dominatly the positive reinforcement method. Any behaviourist who says biting is part of the normal program or is expected is not with the program or any program and needs a new job description. You are not in control and noone is teaching you control. Getting bit, either yourself or someone else is no way to teach not to get bit in the future. Or rather not to allow your dog to bite in the future. On the contrary, with every biting incident the dog learns and confirms that unwanted behaviour. You need to understand that you can correct a dog and control it without any abusive methods. But you cannot use positive all the time. Positive is good at times, but firmness and consequence is needed at other times. There are things that are non-negotiable and your dog needs to learn from you what those are. NO means NO and not "pretty please". You did not describe any aggressive training methods. Putting a chain collar on a dog is not an aggressive approach. Few dogs get lunged at for no reason. Your dog must have done something to provoke the other dog. Dogs encounter other "lunging" dogs all the time. They can handle it. And they can also handle a correction with a chain collar. It does not make your dog more aggressive. Onset of puberty at that age made your dog more aggressive, and your own overprotective and unsure behaviour. You reinforced your dog probably without actually realising it. Let me guess, it makes you upset when other dogs pick on your dog. But it happens. And you had been very unsure about what to do when the lunging happened. Whenever you are unsure about a situation, your dog will pick it up and probably react to that. Make the dog more unsure, defensive, possibly aggressive. Start with teaching your dog an "off" switch. The down comes in handy. When you see your dog starting to get out of hand, at the onset, NOT when he already is out of hand, you put the dog in a down, step on the leash if need be to keep him in place. Better you getting bit in the foot or leg than someone else. But unlikely. This will help to diffuse the situation. Get some control over the situation, calm things down. The next step is to teach your dog to pay attention only to you when you want to. If his eyes are on you he will be less likely to bite someone because he is not paying attention to them. Try clicker training for that. Once that is firmly in place you can expose him to approach and touch by others and acceptance of such close encounters. That you should do with a trainer. Other people do not need to touch your dog if you do not like it. When you meet up with people and the dog has been placed in the down, there is less enticement for other people to pet him, and if they do, by the time they have bent down you have already stopped them. If you keep an eye on them. Other people do not need to play with your dog. A trainer who gets bit in the process IMO has himself to blame. If your dog is still intact then he is still in puberty and acting accordingly. Now is the time to be firm, but fair. What he learns now, edged on by hormones, he will not change back later. You need to make a choice, not an excuse. Dogs do not rationalize, they just act/react. You can control how he is acting most of the time. You can also control some of his environment, but I would say this will never be a safe dog. Rather one that you always need to keep an eye on. He was shy to begin with, some of that is showing through now. cont...

cont... A SchH club is not a good choice IMO either. Teaching the dog more aggressive behaviour now is the wrong approach, even with the excuse that you then learn to control that aggressive behaviour. You do not seem like the person to be able to do that effectively, at least not yet. Most SchH clubs get gung-ho when they see a dog that could potentially do even half decent bite work and the control and obedience is left by the wayside. I have seen too many disasters happen that way. The only way I would agree that this is a good choice is if the club has a policy that problem dogs like this one will not do any bite work until the owner can prove that he is in absolute control at all times. Few clubs will stick to their own well meant policies though. Final tips - when you tell your dog something, say it like you mean it and actually *mean it*. Once! No immideate reply means consequence for the dog, ie being put in the down for a few minutes. The you repeat until the dog gets it right. And if that means that a single taks takes 2 hours to perfect. Such "battles" happen occasionally. If you have more persistence than your dog, you keep the upper hand. If you continually give in, meaning actually that you give up, your dog has the upper hand and every time he gets his way you have confirme that he controls you. Your dog has to earn his privileges, very simple. Set clear boundries. Step over them once, push back gently. Step over them twice, push back with consequence, so that there will be no stepping over boundries a third time. Feed him only after you and your family have eaten, and never when he demands food. You go through tight spaces first, that includes doorways, hallways, etc. Never allow your dog to push a door open that you want to go through. If that happens, close door again, and again, and again if necessary, until dog steps back and you can go through door on your terms. Dogs enters and exits the car only when told. Make him sit and wait for it. When dog is in the way, flopped down in the living room in a high traffic area where everyone has to step over him (notice I am not saying if, because I am 110% sure that he chooses such places where he is in the way, to control the space), make him get up when you walk past, do NOT step over the dog or choose an alternate route. He has no place on people furniture. At least not uninvited. With some of those rules in place you should get more control over your dog. And by also controlling how much contact he has with people you can avoid future biting incidents.

Howdy, DH, very well said, i agree with your assesment. Consistency is the key, if you want to inforce a certain behavior it has to be corrected in the same way at all times. Sometimes this can be very upsetting and stressfull but it will pay out. " Doing something slow, somtimes means doing it fast in the longrun !" With 1,5 years your male is just checking out how far he can get , plus this is the time when maturity starts kicking in. As DH discribed it, he needs to learn where is position is in life and around you. On top of it it seems that you did not find the wright person to help you with this. You did not mention if this is your first GSD, but it sounds like it.I would strongly suggest that you get some good, professional help asap. This is not meant to discourage you, but if your dog shows is kind of behavior he needs to be set in place as soon as possible. I do not know in what curcumstances you live in, but sometimes it works if you place the dog in a training facility for a couple of weeks. A different envirement might allready change his attitude plus an adiquate training should do the trick. This intrests me, it would be nice if you keep us informed, how you are going to deal with this. Regards Ulli