New Style Dog Trainers and Behaviourists - Page 1

I'm making this post not because I want to emulate these trainers, but because I want to know who they are and how they think. Who are the people who want to completely throw out pack theory, and say you don't need to be the alpha, because dog packs don't work the same as wolf packs? Who is the dean of clicker training? Of positive-only training?

Recently Hodie linked to an article by a guy who said Cesar Millan had set dog training back 30 or 40 years with his archaic methods. WHO are the people who think this is true, and how do THEY train?

Let's get some names here: articles, books, videos. I grew up with Kohler, but I'm not too old to learn. And I've got enough years of experience under my belt to know when to call '****shit for what it is!

I still believe there are times when the old ways are needed. We have a young lab in the kennel right now. He's big, strong as a bull, and has the manners of one too. He's a chocolate-coloured version of Marley. He was on 3 different medications, two for ears, one for inflammed eyes, and he would yank me around the room as I was trying to restrain him. The only way to handle him was get a noose on his neck, snub it through the chain link of the cage front, and hang on until he stopped struggling. (Basically, he'd choked himself into submission.) I'd like to see someone train THAT dog using all-positive methods!

Interesting. Let's hope for some good responses.

What amazes me about Cesar, are the things you literally see him do. I remember one show, a famous woman, think she was a singer or an actress. She had this giant Rott. It was so strong and aggressive that she couldn't take him out of the kennel any more and it just stayed in there. She had become afraid of him and totally couldn't do anything with him which was tearing her apart.. Cesar when he got there walked right into the kennel and sat down near the dog. And after a few sessions was spending time with him. I think that that was a dog that had to go back to his pack but then turned back into a very nice pet for this women and she could walk him once again. I'm a believer. Now yes, you can say we don't see behind the scenes or maybe we're not there 24/7 but I think he is something special. And that Daddy!Miss him.

I've seen where his pack is 42. 42, different breeds, different types. And ever watch him when he's feeding them like meat when their outside near the pool? Everyone is taking their turn.

Now that I'm thinking, not sure if it was a Rott or that breed that's used for lion hunting/killing?

Haven't seen that episode, but the breed you're thinking of is probably the Rhodesian ridgeback.

Cesar is NOT 'new school' though. He will choke a dog out, and will use strong methods of control like prong collars on dogs that are difficult to control. Even his so-called Gentle Leader is not as gentle as it looks.

I'm more interested in learning about the trainers who say prongs and choke chains are cruel, and you shouldn't need anything more than a flat collar.

Understand. Unfortunately I am not one of those.

 the so called humane ways of training have been practiced by the oldest and the best dog trainer on the hardest dogs. Harsh methods are absolutely used discreetely by the top trainers to tackle specific issues on a case by case basis. Flat collars are only used . For sure in sports. Those who just put on a prong collar in a 8 month puppy are basically idiots and all those who are selling their DVDs and books under the garb of so called New Mthods are just marketers. Positive training has been around for a long time its just the media hype nowadyas that it is catching the eye of public. its how fast you want to train your dog and bring him/her in trials. Lastly, if your dog has the right genetics and bred right he /she will teach YOU how to train not vice versa;)


cheers

Yeah I know, like there's no hierarchy in DOG packs, I'm not even going to talk about wolves, but there is clear hierarchy in dogs packs....  yes, it changes, yes it is dynamic, but when you have multiple dogs in a home or even in a feral group, there are "top dogs" and "subordinates."  Dogs must know they are subordinate to humans, not through force necessarily, but through good training, boundaries, and controlling of resources.

Even in families, as a trainer, I can see how the dog views different people.  When they come in to work with their dogs during a board & train, the dog may listen great to one family member, then the other one they completely blow off and won't even down for them, even if they both spend equal time with the dog-- and it's usually the person who mainly plays and cuddles, dotes on them, with them and sets no boundaries, dogs know who is "in charge" and who is "on their level as an equal packmate."

Anyway, read this article, it's great-- http://pawsnmotion.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/rhetoric-in-dog-training-literature/  It's talks about Victoria Stilwell and the propaganda in positive training.

As for Cesar, I am honestly not a fan, I do not think he is a good dog trainer, I think he is obviously very sucessful, wealthy, and can be helpful to the families sometimes, but I don't agree with what he actually does with some dogs-- however we are going to see him Saturday night in person for his seminar-thingy, if only for learning new ways to relate to owners and better teach people.  I am keeping an open mind and hoping to take away something good from him.

Doberdoodle,

Definately tell us of the firsthand insight of that seminar.

Doberdoodle, excellent article! Thank you very much for that link!

Also, I like your attitude re. the seminar with Cesar. That's my approach to training, too. I may THINK these people are full of B.S. because what they are saying flies in the face of everything I've learned so far about training and pack theory, but what results are they achieving? WHY are they so popular?

You may remember the link that's been posted here several times of a GSD and a visula shopping in a pet store. The visula is also a service dog for its handicapped owner, and ALL of the training for both dogs was done with a clicker. Now, THAT'S the sort of thing that impresses me, and makes me say, "Hmmm, maybe I SHOULD give this a try!"  Okay, I hate having the damn thing in my hand, and fumble with it and miss marking the behaviour, but you can also use a verbal marker if you don't like the clicker.

Here's the link to the 'Dogs Go Shopping' video: www.youtube.com/watch

 Heres some positive only training for you guys :)

Youtube is hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gu1ECVyMB4


On a side note. I think a balanced amount of training is the most appropriate for dogs. Obviously we want to make it positive enough for them to do it. But also let them know there are consequences for not listening. 

just my $0.02

I remember a story that was told in the mid 1990's at the Contra Costa Schutzhund Club about a contest between all positive training methods and methods used by Ivan Balabanov using positive, negative and always within his philosophy about operant conditioning.  Ivan Balabanov at that time was the Behaviorist at San Francisco SPCA and the people in our club involved in the "contest" worked there in the hearing dog, assistance dog and rescue kennel.  The new wave of "positive only" training had not taken over there yet but it was in progress.

The people in the contest were international winning competitors in ring sport (Kathy O'Brien and Bomber), schutzhund (Martha and Jeckel) and mondio ring.  They were in constant debates at work over which methods were more effective.

The contest involved each picking out a dog from the strays in the rescue kennel and training it.  I don't remember the time frame but the results were clear-Ivan's crew beat the crap out of the "positive only" people.  It was humiliating for the "positive onlies" but strangely enough, it did not change them

Ivan was a very cerebral guy with a very even temperament towards the dogs.....very in control and never cruel, harsh or angry-just very measured.  The dogs loved him.  In obedience, dogs trained by his methods were very upbeat and precise.  He was not so communicative with humans.

This was before he had launched his career in seminars and videos.  I am sure this has opened him up.

I sure wish he hadn't moved to Florida.

Michele