Blue and livers

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by duplinger on 06 January 2011 - 11:01

You should go back and re read the breed standard, (not saying blues livers and whites arent DQ) but there are dogs in the show rings that shouldnt be! You can show these DQ dogs under other registries, the color doesnt make them any less of a German shepherd. I know breeders that breed these colors in association with titles, and health certs, along with the "standard" it is completely close minded to suggest these are any less qualified just because of their color.

by Red Sable on 06 January 2011 - 14:01

You are absolutely right about dogs being in the show ring and winning that shouldn't be, however, it isn't right. The standard is there for a reason, to keep the GSD a GSD which is supposed to be a working breed btw, - don't forget about the correct temperament also.

Thankfully, on the other side of this mess, there are breeders trying hard to breed to the standard.

I personally don't like blues and livers, and I hate crippled looking hock walkers even more, so I won't support a breeder that breeds either.

On the other hand, I love the LSC's and as long as they have the correct temperament for a GSD and super conformation, I will and have bought them. So, maybe that makes me a hypocrite as far as the standard is concerned.

by beetree on 06 January 2011 - 14:01

Red Sable,

If I'm not mistaken, FCI approved LSC's as of this year. So you are no longer a hypocrite.

by Red Sable on 06 January 2011 - 14:01

Thanks beetree glad to hear it.

by Prager on 06 January 2011 - 15:01

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/forum/54894.html?pagen=1
prager hans

by Red Sable on 06 January 2011 - 15:01

I hope you don't mind me copying some posts of what you said in these other threads Prager, incase some don't take the time to read through them.

The most important reasons why we should not breed nor support breeders of blue or liver:

" Blue and liver are delusion gene. In simple terms it means that colors in animals are based on:eumelanin (black) and pheomelanin (red or yellow) pigmentation. These are controlled by gene Melanocortin 1 Receptor (MC1R) or we call it extension gene then there are Agouti and Dilute. These genes cause the diminishing of eumelanin and pheomelanin. This often shows by none black color of the nose and pink gums, lighted colored toe nails, lighter (yellow) eyes and so on. In another words loss of pigmentation. Standard calls it washed out colors.
Loss of pigmentation is a major problem in bloodlines and it is an initial indicator of degeneration of the line which if not heeded will progress to other problems .
Thus yes the colors like liver and blue may be cute but are extremely detrimental to the breed of GSD.
That is why the standard considers them a problem and breeders must not breed them. I would place such pups to pet home.As you say live and let live. But do not breed! And most definitely do not linebreed!!! They can have normal life. In Czech they are disqualified from breeding for that reason. If bred then you are on downhill slope!"
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

"Also it is major mistake to say that color will not change temperament. Genes usually do not change just one characteristic but they change 2 or more! Here is A GOOD example. Color often goes with temperament. For example pure white animals ( animals with white skin and not just hair) have more neurological problems. (Deafness,....) Melanin ( dark pigment ) is also found in midbrain of animals. It is thus beleived that melanin has a protective function in the brain. For example Dalmatians and other white dogs are often deaf and so on. Some white horses or blue eyed horses are totally crazy. Now this is an extreme expression of the lack of pigmentation but there are others less pronounced problems ,.....but still they are problems. Remember dark is good, lite is bad. Mouth of the GSD should be black and black spots on tong are desirable, as are dark eyes, black toe nails, deep colors of fur. As I have said above blue and liver are dilution genes and as such they are diminishing pigmentation and that is a first sign of degeneration.
DO NOT BREED OR BUY FOR BREEDING BLUE AND LIVER!!!!!!!!!!!!THERE ARE ENOUGH PROBLEMS IN THE BREED ALREADY!!!!"

by vonissk on 06 January 2011 - 17:01

Amen.

by Slamdunc on 06 January 2011 - 21:01

Very interesting qoute from Prager. The people who breed Blues and Livers are concerned about the breed or the degeneration of their line or betterment of the breed. They are trying to market a "rare" GSD. What a shame.

Jim

by VonIsengard on 06 January 2011 - 22:01

I really dislike the "well look at X and Y dog winning in the show ring and they are crappy dogs" argument. Yes, dogs that do not deserve to be in the gene pool are placed there by crooked breeders and judges. Since when do two wrongs make a right? Because they are breaking the rules under a loose interpretation of standard, its ok for others to break them, too?

Tell you what. Find me a breeder who regularly produces completely heatlhy, anatomically correct off colored GSDs who have attained real performance titles and/or working certifications and then we'll talk. Find me some livers, blues, whites, whatever who meet SV breed survey requirements in absolutely every area with the sole exception of color.

by windwalker18 on 06 January 2011 - 22:01

Blues and liver are Dilute (not Delusion) genes.... LOL they're real. This is true in GSD's as well as some others. Dobi's have Blue and Isabella (Fawn) genes which are dilute of the black and red... Not sure what their status is in their standard, but a friend who raised Dobi's told me that there were skin and allergy issues especially with the Isabella.

The idea in a Dilute is that if bred to a Black/red, or Dark sable it will lead to fading of the coat color in future progeny. Fading was rampant back in the 70's and 80's in US Show lines. A number of very well known and popular Sires carried a fading gene... Reno for one... I never heard of him throwing blues or Liver's though, so have to wonder if that link is true or not. The WGSD was blamed for fading for many years, then thought to be a recessive, now I believe it's considered a masking gene (but must still be carried by both parents to produce a white).

I'd wonder about the genetics of blues/livers when bred to other colors... will it cause fading?? Or will you only occasionally get recessive puppies of the blue/liver color.... but also normal colors in the sables or Br/Red that are produced...(which may carry the blue/liver gene) If someone can give a non technical answer (I'm too old to follow all the alleles that are involved in genetics) that'd be great... thanks!

Jill

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