New here - am I ruining my retrieve? - Page 1

Here is my boy Brash, 9 months old and training in Schutzhund.  He's a great dog and is learning nicely, but I have a question about the "two hose" or "two ball" game.  I have two identical toys that we play with.  When I throw the first toy, he runs to get it, picks it up in his mouth, drops it immediately, and comes back for the second toy.  He's not stupid. He knows I have that second toy, and it is "alive" to him, whereas the first one is "dead" now.

HOWEVER, I have trained him to bring me a toy when I say the word "Bring."  He will bring it right to my hands wanting to play tug with it, IF I don't have a second toy.  I don't do this seriously yet, just trying to imprint the word with him once in a while.  When he brings it to me I tug for a few seconds and let go, and repeat.  I do this separately from the "two hose" game.

I don't want to ruin future retrieve training by getting frustrated with him over this game. He can tell I'm frustrated and gets confused and anxious if I tell him "NO go get it!"  He obviously isn't a natural retriever, but can be taught a simple "Bring" retrieve.  However I like the idea of the "two tug" game for burning energy and having fun.  Does anyone have any tips/tricks for getting him to actually bring me that first toy and drop it somewhere near me?  I am not going to slog across the yard for it every time while he tries to steal the one I have in my hand.  I've tried turning and running, walking backwards while calling him, and patting my leg.  He thinks those are lots of fun and dances around me for the second toy, while the first one just lies there dead 20 feet away.

Either you are training it or not.  Don't name it until you like it.  That's funny, you want to play 2 ball but he will hardly play with 1.  9 months is way too early to start pressure on retrieves.  The only thing you are going to imprint is that he does not like to retrieve.  2 ball is when the dog brings the ball back to you and does not want to drop the one in his mouth when he comes back to you.  I hot glue rope to the inside bar of a sch. 2 dumbell and use that as an OB tug.  I also put eye hole screws in the end so I can attach a handle and use the handle to tug.  I also keep a 15 ft line on the dog and don't throw it passed that distance. Give a lite tug and high pitched playful "heir" while moving backwards.  Everything is fun don't start the pressure stuff or you'll be sorry.  I hate seeing a dog give a half assed retrieve.

Kyle

back up and just use one toy . when fido figures out tug of war will happen everytime he brings the toy back to you consistency will start to happen. then down the road tug of war only happens when he sits properly in front of you. no bumping or sitting crooked! make him sit there 3 - 5 seconds before you reach for the toy, only after you take it from him can you release him for his reward.  then he gets to play tug after he leaves his proper front sit and gets in the heel position. always pausing 3 - 5 seconds before you reward him. once fido understands the game things will become automatic to him. if your standing still he must bring the toy back to you! if your walking sideways or backpedaling away from him he can run free with his toy.  this is also a good method to speed up retrieves and heels. nothing worse then a dog taking his/her sweet time on a heel command from a front. fido is being trained and chances are he doesn't even realize it.

you may want to ask a pro... im only a carpenter from chicago!;o)~

Annadaboo,
I use the "two hose" or "two ball" game to teach a lightning fast recall and the beginning of the out.  I do not use the two hose game for the retrieve. 

When I throw the first toy the dog races for it.  I show the dog the second toy and get him racing towards me.  As he starts. the moment he starts heading towards me I say "Here."  As the dog is running full speed to me and I see his mouth beginning to open to drop the first toy, I say "out." 

As the dog races towards me and gets very close I throw the second toy in the opposite direction and the dog sprints that way for the toy.  This is a very, very high energy, super enthusiastic game for both of us.  As the the dog speeds by me I run for the first toy and pick it up and reset the game. 

Now, the game has to be structured to fit the dog.  I will try to gauge when the dog will drop the first toy and if it tends to drop it far away, I will not show the second toy until it is very close.  Then I will take the second toy out and whip it around.  I use a ball on a rope for this and not a hose.  If the dog runs to me and holds the first toy, I will show the second toy earlier. 

As the dog gets the hang of it, I throw the toy directly between my legs as the dog is approaching at full speed.  This gets the dog to run full speed directly at me and through my legs.  With older dogs, I have to jump to make room for them to pass through.  This is not with out risk for those as clumsy as me.  However, it makes a lightning fast recall directly to me.   I should note, I only use the "Here" command for this exercise.  I use "come"  in the house or when I want the dog to normally return to me.  I am the only one allowed to use the "Here" command.  "Here" means come to me at full speed.  Through this game the dog associates "here" with sprinting to me.  

I will say the "out" command as the dog is dropping the toy initially, the timing is critical.  The dog learns to drop the toy or whatever is in his mouth to get his next reward.  Dogs learn by repetition and will associate "out" with dropping what is in it's mouth.  It makes teaching the out much easier later on when the dog has this understanding.  

My thoughts are you are using this game to teach the wrong principles, IMO.  I have had great success using this technique for really fast recalls and the out, especially with puppies or young dogs.

JMO FWIW,

Jim   

 Thanks everyone for your responses -

I know I shouldn't be seriously training a retrieve yet, I just didn't want him to associate running toward me with something in his mouth as negative, not because of him but because *I* am so easily frustrated.  That's something I need to work on, I know!  He does play other games well and retrieves one item really well, even shoves it into my hands so I'll tug with it.  I've been watching Ivan Balabanov's "The Game" and got some ideas from that for just my basic playing with my dog.  I am a total novice so I guess I have to mess up to learn what I'm doing wrong!

I tried out some of your ideas and it turns out most of my problem was that these were new toys which he didn't have any drive for. (They're just plastic chew toys from the store - cheap as possible.)  Once I threw two tugs, he held onto them as long as possible. LOL. That just shows you how dumb I am, I could not figure out why he was dropping them but it makes perfect sense if he doesn't really want them in the first place.  Poor dog, with me as an owner!  I tried out everything everyone suggested (here and in PM) and I found a combo that works much better.  Thanks everyone!