Hypothetical Breeding: Quesion about linebreeding - Page 1

Assuming these two dogs were breed:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=655819&modir=646685

Could someone explain the linebreeding aspects? I've done some preleminary reading and understand the concept, but what I'm not grasping is what would "good" linebreeding vs poor linebreeding? Would this be considered a "good" match or "bad" and what argument supports either of those opinions.

I'm rather curious because my Dam (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/646685.html) is linebreed and I'd like to understand more of how this plays into her genetics.


Thanks for your time!

Your female has very nice pedigree and nice linebreeding on Fero.  Fero was a good dog and produced well with some bitches and not so well with others.  He was very widely used for breeding in Germany.  There are alot of dogs who have Fero in them so I would probably recommend and out cross for your girl.  That is based solely on pedigree....what really matters is what qualities she brings to the table, what are her good points and her weaknesses?  You should pick a male based on what they both bring to the table.

Good luck and study alot and talk to knowledgeable people who know pedigrees!

Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com

Vickie,

Thank you for your kind comments on my girl! I've been made aware from various people who've looked at my Dam's pedigree that Fero was rather impressive. I've really got no intention of breeding her at this point. We've yet to achieve anything that validates her as anything other than a well-bred dog. I'm to blame (at this point) for her lack of accomplishment due to me being located by Uncle Sam (I'm military) and I've just been moved to an area where their really isn't much happening around me that would allow me to tap into a good knowledge/experience base to get some training done. I've certainly been looking, but other commitments in life prohibit me from making 3-5 hour drives for a training session once a week. I am working with some locals though who do have some experience and hopefully will get us on the right track for when I am in a better position to seek a qualified and quality trainer.

Right now, from working with and around others my girl shows impecible work ethic and is very eager to work and get it right. With the very limited ammount of time I've spent working her in obedience she's clearly a step ahead of her peers that have had much more time/experience. She's very quick learning and eager to please.

She's very confident in any situation/surrounding. A lot of that is due to the socializing efforts I did while she was young. I believe she's got a very good head on her sholders and is sound in the head.

I could go on about her, but I think she follows the breed standard very well, and embodies what a GSD should be. But time will be the judge of that. I'd like to get her hips eval'd and see where we're at training wise at 2-3 years before I make any solid statement about her.

But to the linebreeding.. With the hypothetical breeding of my friends dog and my own, I noticed there were quite a few linebreedings. If I'm reading the numbers correctly they're all 4-5 generations back. Is this something like a red flag that should be avoided, or is multiple linebreedings (with sound examples of course!) a "good thing"?

most of the linebreeding is in the 4th,5th gen,there is a math equasion(coefficent of linebreeding) that you might want to look into.....(math and spelling are not my strong suits)...nothing glaring at me about hips,a"NZ" and "fast normal" here and there...no biggie,you could do a hypothetical"ZW", to see what the numbers look like.it did look to me that both dogs display basically the same body type,if that's the body type you desire,then go with it......by the time you get truely ready to breed your bitch,you'll change your mind a "gazillion times"...what if the stud you listed doesn't turn out...it happens,perhaps your military travels may land you in the backyard of one of the top studs available,keep an open mind....no one to train with.....you can do O/B in your kitchen,and there's probably excellent tracking on any military base in the world,i was sataioned in norfolk,va. during the viet nam era...as i think of it there was tracking up the wazoo almost anywhere on the base,and it was the same with any base i happened to be at the time...as to qualifications to breed.."imho",FH,AD,OB-3,it's not all about the "bitework",if it can't be done properly,don't do it....good luck with your training.

I must add that I initially didn't understand what you meant by by outcrossing. A little reading quickly tells me you're of the opinion that further line breeding would be a poor choice. I've certainly got a lot of reading to do, but thankfully I'm just interested to better understand rather than to be the one playing match maker!

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

What you need to understand when you linebreed is that you are strengthening all genes present . Good and bad obvious or not (!!!). Thus you do not want to linebreed on dogs who have problems, produce problems or their ancestors had problems or their littermates. Also what you are doing you are turning genotype into phenotype. In other words you are forcing genes not to stay hidden but express them selves and you can actually see what is in the dogs hidden genetic makeup because now it is part of the dogs description.
Thus when you linebreed you need to know really well the + and - of the dogs you linebreed on. If there are major problems then you should not linebreed on such dogs. For example dog Fero . I would not linebreed on him since he has moderate quality of hips. I would not mind to have him in my pedigree but I would not linebreed on him. That is JMO. Breeding fast normal hips is OK according to SV but according to OFA it is fair to borderline HD based on my experience and I would not linebreed on that. Also there are too many dogs with such or worse hips in these pedigrees,  thus if I would want to linebreed on a dog then I would select a dog which has great hips, produces great hips, and at least 5 generations back have good hips and liter mates of all dogs within at least 3-5 generations have mostly great hips.
   Now I am using hips only as an example and you must not get stucked just on hips, you need to evaluate elbows , temperament, drives, longevity, servicibility,... and so on and on of each dog you linebreed on. 
As you can see this is not a task for a beginner, but for experienced and knowledgeable breeder. Knowledgeable of all the +and - of the the dogs you linebreed on. There are dire consequences if you linebreed on a dog with some problem. However if you do it right then you will strengthen good genes and thus improve the breed,....and vice versa if you mess up. This is how the blood lines and breeds are created and improved if done properly.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com   

first of all ,linebreeding in the fourth and fifth generation , is not really linebreeding , you better look at the actual dogs , their parents and eventually the grandparents of your combination ,
secondly , breeding and linebreeding is about dogs first and paper/pedigree second , so vickie's post is a good one to remember

about the greatness of ferro , lets say opinions vary , if you look at his videos compared to todays standards , hhhmmmm

finally , hans , I totally disagree with your comparing of various hipratings , as I have had multiple dogs x rayed and evaluated in various countries , holland / germany and america, and the results were different than what you discribe

one of my dogs was  B in holland , he got A norm. in germany and OFA exelent in the usa

since this was some years ago , it would be interesting to do it again , and get this stupid chard on the net corrected , or maybe myself , who knows

so hans , if I get some dogs xrayed in holland and germany , and send the xrays to you , can you have them done by  OFA , Ill pay for the  european part

justDSM , sorry for borrowing your topic

Duke
 Yes if you send different film to different organizations with different positioning at different age ,   then you will get different readings. That would be the truth if you send it to the same org too. :). 
However
I am talking about optimal proper reading. I am not taking into account that the reader of the x ray had a hang over or his girlfriend dumped him. The x rays I am talking about is dependent on the quality of the x rays tremendously. Thus yes it is possible if the x rays films were different. Generally I would say that OFA in principal   is more stringent then most such organisations . One of the reasons is that it is done at 2 years.
Here look at this page ( scroll down):
http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

hans , im coming to the states about dogs since 1989 , so I know about OFA
I ve been in the US  Xraying dogs for american breeder , I saw the pics , they were not great , dog got OFA ex

the dogs I did in the US were the same pics printed multiple times and evaluated multiple  times

but I can understand why some people want to keep the chart alive

with what I know   most OFA  fair dogs wont pass in europe , as the dogs with C rating here , got OFA  good , evaluated on the same set of Xrays

OK what ever you say. Anything is possible. I have seen the same as you describe  but generally my experience is exactly the opposite. Really.
Mexican stand off?:)
Also
Noch zugelassen is in OFA pretty much  border line or  dysplastic. And that is at 13 mo. OFA is done at 2 years.  I would not breed it unless I know that it was caused by injury but  in SV world it is "still permissible".   
Again I am talking about the system and not about someone made a improper reading. That would be a pissing contest I am not going to go into  We all have plenty of examples going both ways.
prager hans
http://www.alpinek9.com