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by RLHAR on 13 December 2010 - 19:12
It's a Monday ... good day for a question! 
I know I'm probably speaking in generalities, just if you would go with me. From my meger experience with my female and coupled with voracious reading, I've concluded that at least in the beginning with a young dog, when the dog is being worked in prey the picture you want is dog learning that by barking and engaging the helper, he/she gets the 'prey' to move and react, thus rewarding the dog's desire to play with the large man sized 'toy'.
Thus, 'I bark and move forward and my toy moves and the game is lively and it's what I want!!' Lots of fun for puppies and very young dogs.
Now a different picture. A young, green dog (over a year old) has the pillow in his posession. The helper closes on him to take the toy back, the young dog steps into the helper, barking deep from the chest, lips drawn back to show teeth and the pillow now firmly guarded between his front feet. The helper gives a low key threat (this is a young dog), dog holds his ground, barking and lunging forward to snap at the threatening stick, the helper immediately gives ground to 'reward' the dog by letting him chase him off.
How would you read this behavior? If the dog barked, tried to snatch up his toy and retreat I'd assume it was more a fear anxiety (get away from me, I don't like you, I'm taking my toy and going home) but the picture is a dog who stepped over his toy and into the helper when the helper attempted to take the toy back and the body language was more (I don't like you but if you invade my space again you're drawing back a nub).
I'm probably describing this badly and I apologize for that. I suppose it was the first time I'd ever watched the 'dance' were there wasn't an element of the 'prey game' involved, it was more serious and my question is, when you're working at dog who is more serious about things, what is the picture you want to see to ensure that dog is learning his job?
Is it simply, 'I bark and this man stops invading my space' or is there more to it than that?
PS: For the record the helper's timing was really something graceful to witness. Enough pressure to bring up the aggression coupled with a well timed retreat to reward the dog's confidence. And a couple well timed dance moves to save his hands!
I know I'm probably speaking in generalities, just if you would go with me. From my meger experience with my female and coupled with voracious reading, I've concluded that at least in the beginning with a young dog, when the dog is being worked in prey the picture you want is dog learning that by barking and engaging the helper, he/she gets the 'prey' to move and react, thus rewarding the dog's desire to play with the large man sized 'toy'.
Thus, 'I bark and move forward and my toy moves and the game is lively and it's what I want!!' Lots of fun for puppies and very young dogs.
Now a different picture. A young, green dog (over a year old) has the pillow in his posession. The helper closes on him to take the toy back, the young dog steps into the helper, barking deep from the chest, lips drawn back to show teeth and the pillow now firmly guarded between his front feet. The helper gives a low key threat (this is a young dog), dog holds his ground, barking and lunging forward to snap at the threatening stick, the helper immediately gives ground to 'reward' the dog by letting him chase him off.
How would you read this behavior? If the dog barked, tried to snatch up his toy and retreat I'd assume it was more a fear anxiety (get away from me, I don't like you, I'm taking my toy and going home) but the picture is a dog who stepped over his toy and into the helper when the helper attempted to take the toy back and the body language was more (I don't like you but if you invade my space again you're drawing back a nub).
I'm probably describing this badly and I apologize for that. I suppose it was the first time I'd ever watched the 'dance' were there wasn't an element of the 'prey game' involved, it was more serious and my question is, when you're working at dog who is more serious about things, what is the picture you want to see to ensure that dog is learning his job?
Is it simply, 'I bark and this man stops invading my space' or is there more to it than that?
PS: For the record the helper's timing was really something graceful to witness. Enough pressure to bring up the aggression coupled with a well timed retreat to reward the dog's confidence. And a couple well timed dance moves to save his hands!
by Pirates Lair on 13 December 2010 - 20:12
“Snatching up his toy” is more Possessive Prey, as opposed to Civil or Defense work.
In "D" no toys, pillows etc. should be used. JMO
In "D" no toys, pillows etc. should be used. JMO
by RLHAR on 13 December 2010 - 20:12
Maybe I didn't write that clearly.
He did NOT snatch up the toy. Stepped over it and into the helper when the helper went to try to take it back.
The session was started as 'prey' but switched gears after the dog got hold of the pillow and then wouldn't allow it to be taken back.
He did NOT snatch up the toy. Stepped over it and into the helper when the helper went to try to take it back.
The session was started as 'prey' but switched gears after the dog got hold of the pillow and then wouldn't allow it to be taken back.
by KYLE on 13 December 2010 - 21:12
Sounds like you have decent decoy. Be careful with doing this too much. Pressure a young dog too soon and he goes down, it could take a while if ever to bring him back up. Engaging the helper while standing over the prey I would call more social aggression. He is being challenged and willing to engage. Now you have to read your dog. Is he hackling up, ears back, completely fanged up? We want our young dogs thinking. If they get a grip like this, it maybe shallow and not hard. We want our dogs to enjoy grip work, not think its a fight everytime they step on the field.
My 2 cents
Kyle
My 2 cents
Kyle
by RLHAR on 13 December 2010 - 21:12
Kyle,
Thank you for the breakdown and yes the helper appeared to have good read and timing, especially as the game plan 'changed' mid session. This was definitely one of those cases where things started under Plan A but then changed to suit the strengths of a young dog. At the end of the day this was all about giving the dog confidence.
Hackles were not up, I can't cleanly remember ears, except they went up and back as the two danced, I'll have to pay more attention next time. Teeth were bared say 1/4 of the way for most of it but went to a 3/4 baring during one engagement.
When the dog did get a bite on the pillow from the decoy it was full, hard and he put his whole body into 'pull back' on the pillow, fighting with the helper as he wasn't letting go, even when shown stick threat. To be clear this is a young dog, things are being taken slowly, so when I say stick threat I mean some verbal noise, arm raised but no actual contact to the dog.
Thank you for the breakdown and yes the helper appeared to have good read and timing, especially as the game plan 'changed' mid session. This was definitely one of those cases where things started under Plan A but then changed to suit the strengths of a young dog. At the end of the day this was all about giving the dog confidence.
Hackles were not up, I can't cleanly remember ears, except they went up and back as the two danced, I'll have to pay more attention next time. Teeth were bared say 1/4 of the way for most of it but went to a 3/4 baring during one engagement.
When the dog did get a bite on the pillow from the decoy it was full, hard and he put his whole body into 'pull back' on the pillow, fighting with the helper as he wasn't letting go, even when shown stick threat. To be clear this is a young dog, things are being taken slowly, so when I say stick threat I mean some verbal noise, arm raised but no actual contact to the dog.
by Slamdunc on 13 December 2010 - 23:12
RLHAR,
Now a different picture. A young, green dog (over a year old) has the pillow in his posession. The helper closes on him to take the toy back, the young dog steps into the helper, barking deep from the chest, lips drawn back to show teeth and the pillow now firmly guarded between his front feet. The helper gives a low key threat (this is a young dog), dog holds his ground, barking and lunging forward to snap at the threatening stick, the helper immediately gives ground to 'reward' the dog by letting him chase him off.
How would you read this behavior?
Your dog has a very good reaction. The dog has switched from prey to "guarding" it's prey and challenging the helper for it. When this is done properly the dog learns that a strong outward show of
aggression drives the decoy away and the dog wins. This is as good a confidence booster as a bite and a slip. The dog learns that by confronting the threat, the dog has the power to scare the decoy away by simply barking and his presence. We do this quite often with young dogs. This approach of trying to steal the prey very often brings young dogs out of their shell. This is a good approach to get some dogs to bark who are so locked in prey that they do not bark at the decoy.
I do not like to mix prey and defense and am not a big fan of switching form one to the other. If I am working a dog in prey, then it's prey. If I'm pushing a dog, then it's defense. One or the other. The
exception may be where I bring the "guarding" behavior out of the dog over the pillow or sleeve.
I do like how your dog starts the action with the decoy. IMO, the dog needs to initiate the action in bite work. The decoy should walk on the field and the young dog should start the decoy moving by barking.
Overall, I like what your decoy has done. I would use a similar approach.
Jim
Now a different picture. A young, green dog (over a year old) has the pillow in his posession. The helper closes on him to take the toy back, the young dog steps into the helper, barking deep from the chest, lips drawn back to show teeth and the pillow now firmly guarded between his front feet. The helper gives a low key threat (this is a young dog), dog holds his ground, barking and lunging forward to snap at the threatening stick, the helper immediately gives ground to 'reward' the dog by letting him chase him off.
How would you read this behavior?
Your dog has a very good reaction. The dog has switched from prey to "guarding" it's prey and challenging the helper for it. When this is done properly the dog learns that a strong outward show of
aggression drives the decoy away and the dog wins. This is as good a confidence booster as a bite and a slip. The dog learns that by confronting the threat, the dog has the power to scare the decoy away by simply barking and his presence. We do this quite often with young dogs. This approach of trying to steal the prey very often brings young dogs out of their shell. This is a good approach to get some dogs to bark who are so locked in prey that they do not bark at the decoy.
I do not like to mix prey and defense and am not a big fan of switching form one to the other. If I am working a dog in prey, then it's prey. If I'm pushing a dog, then it's defense. One or the other. The
exception may be where I bring the "guarding" behavior out of the dog over the pillow or sleeve.
I do like how your dog starts the action with the decoy. IMO, the dog needs to initiate the action in bite work. The decoy should walk on the field and the young dog should start the decoy moving by barking.
Overall, I like what your decoy has done. I would use a similar approach.
Jim
by RLHAR on 14 December 2010 - 16:12
Jim,
Thank you for giving your opinion on the situation. I was definitely hoping to hear from you on this subject!!
Thank you for giving your opinion on the situation. I was definitely hoping to hear from you on this subject!!
by Slamdunc on 14 December 2010 - 23:12
Lael,
Anytime for you.
Jim
Anytime for you.
Jim
by Davren on 14 December 2010 - 23:12
Jim, Another thanks for the explanation. You have an awesome ability to educate in a way that is quite succinct and easy to understand.
by Slamdunc on 15 December 2010 - 00:12
Renee,
Thanks.
Thanks.
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