Another shy pup - Page 1

I was reading the other thread about the shy puppy and was actually going to add to it, but figured i'd make a new thread. This is my first time posting but I've been a long time lurker. I have a shy pup as well. He is unapproachable, shies away from being touched and is extremely insecure. He used to bark at first but no growling, no hackles up, now he is usually silent. It was described to me as "pack drive" that this puppy had, but I feel it goes beyond that. The puppy is *too* into me, especially in public he gets very insecure and abnormally clingy. He has been like this since I got him at 8 weeks, but I feel like it has gotten worse. I felt like I have done everything "by the book" and did all I was told to by the training director. Normally the pups I see are confident and outgoing and not much bothers. He comes from very nice working lines. His drive to play is outstanding, his grips are usually very good and I can lift him off the ground any time while he is on a tug or rag (or my sleeve or pantleg for that matter!). He was a little weird about playing with me in public but now I can play with him and do obedience at the club right next to people and he is too into me to care, dogs can even bark very near him and it's no bother...as long as no one reaches out to touch him. He freaks out if he is put on the fence and I walk away from him. However, he will allow the helper to pet him as long as I am far away, but I think it is because he is so insecure that he needs *someone* to latch onto. He will not play with the helper either, at all. His drive plummets during stress. Won't even look at a rag or any prey object. Avoidance? He was supposed to have been appropriately socialized by the breeder and I was told he might be a little "environmental", but he should work out fine for a club level schutzhund dog. I am afraid he will not make it that far. He is 4 1/2 months old now. I am ready to give up on him as a sport dog and would like to know, what do i do with him now? I am afraid he will be a liability as he gets older, and larger. I know it sounds awful, but...I want to compete in schutzhund. Am I going to have to buy another dog? He is also 100% healthy, recently re-checked by a vet to make sure there was no physical cause for his problems. I don't really care if he is social or overly outgoing, but he needs to be stable enough to be approachable to at least pass a BH. I am also afraid that if he cannot tolerate being away from me, then he is not going to be able to track out there on his own, nor handle a long down at a trial with me clear across the field. My feeling is that it is genetic, and no matter how well I train him in his obedience, it will come through during times of stress (i.e. trial day). I'm now hearing the rumors about his dam not being social and a little sharp but she is titled Schh3, not sure if the rumors are true but now I sure wonder. I don't know what to do...can anyone help? I really don't want to give up on this pup as a potential sport dog, but I guess I would be dreaming if I expected to wake up one day to this pup being 'normal'. :-(

wowgamer, if you haven't already done this you may want to have the pup's blood tested for thyroid level and TLI. Congenital low thyroid or thyroid too high can cause "nerve ending behavior" as can even mild forms of EPI (exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency). Some puppies are especially sensitive to low zinc levels and lack of proper calcium/phosphorous balance in their food, and potassium, and magnesium levels. Some do not tolerate high levels of protein or fat in their food. There are certain heart defects which are very difficult to hear which can cause anxiety and fearfulness in the puppy. Of course some puppies even when bred from decent parentage can get a bad selection of genes causing instability, but even with that training can often compensate effectively. It's also possible the puppy is undersocialized that it is developmentally delayed. This can occur in a puppy taken away from his mother and siblings too early (10-12 weeks with mom and sibs before adoption may be necessary for many puppies). And the puppy may be too dependent on you as you infer. You may want to enroll the puppy in a series of puppy classes with group playtime or even place the dog with a handler for obediance training off and on for two to three days at a time each week to build the puppies confidence. The practice of moving a sensitive puppy back and forth between the home and the handler's kennel can often be the solution. In certain rare cases SSRI's may need to be prescribed by your vet for up to six months (they tend to lose effectiveness after that, but often attain good results that last by then). A good dog handler or trainer could probably work with you to train you how to shape your puppy's behavior and attitudes in the direction you want. My guess is that puppy socialization to pack life and lots of training around others will give you the results you want. As far as a competitive schutzhund dog, I'd say it's a long shot. As far as an adequate home protector, that should work out, as long as you can build the puppy's confidence and stability.

wowgamer Have you let the breeder know of your problems with this pup? Apperently they knew something if they said he's "environmental." If he started this soon after you got him that means he came to you this way. Breeder should take pup back. Mel

Womgamer, Have the vet check the pup again as already suggested. Secondly, it is a MUST that you work very hard on this, and forget the other training and sports for now. Continue working with him in the club setting and eventually, you can use the people to help you with the socialization. It is not too late for you to make this problem better. It is likely at least part genetic that his temperament is so insecure and he does not like to be touched. I would suggest you start by putting him on a leash, at home, in his own environment and do not feed him for a day. Let one of your quiet friends come over who is not terribly large or imposing in voice or demeanor. Bring a bowl out of the pups favorite treats and/or food. Have the person sit down next to you. You feed the pup a small bite, have the person feed a small bite. The dogs hunger level must be high if it is to overcome his discomfort level. Do this every day if possible, for at least 3-4 morsels of food. In the meantime, keep the dog very hungry, but feed him a little. If he will not take food from anyone else when you are there, he is not hungry enough. Eventually, when he is getting more confident about taking the food from someone *(and vary the person if at all possible), then start a session by having someone feed him and slowly reach out to the side of the dog with the other hand to stroke the dog calmly and softly. Tell the person never to touch his head at this point. Do it slowly and calmly and do not do it too much. Don't do this until he has taken food from several people and is doing better about that part. All this time the dog is on a leash and you are right there and can alternate giving food and verbal praise with the person. Write me for more information about how to progress if you try these methods. You should note that I have a dog here who it took three days of not feeding before I could get him to approach me. In some cases, though it should not be this way, one has to wait until the dogs discomfort from being hungry overcomes his discomfort or fear of being touched by a stranger or in the presence of a stranger. I have had great success with such dogs and watched their confidence grow visably. What you will be able to do with him in Schutzund or if you will be able to do SchH and pass a BH will depend in large measure on whether you can adequately solve this problem. It sounds like his drives are there. Later, teaching him obedience will also help overcome his discomfort, but it is too early for that now. He must develop confidence that people are ok and touch is ok. The breeder did NOT socialize this dog, but, yes, it is probably also his genetic makeup. So now you must provide every opportunity to make up for the lack of socialization and his genetic tendency. It will take a lot of time. If you rush it, you ruin your chances of being successful. The key is small steps and you must be able to understand and observe when the dog is displaying stress. I also agree that a really good trainer to help you is a must. However, finding someone who is good at this kind of thing can be tough and if you get the wrong person, a problem in and of itself. Good luck.

I agree with Hodie, this pup was not properly socialized and you need to really work on this now before it is too late. I trained a few bomb dogs we got from vendors, the dogs where smoking hot in the training enviroment but when deployed to the real world completely shut down and where afraid of all the people. and everything else. It was definetly a case of lack of socialization.