A dog making a judgement call - Page 1

I have noticed that many ehre say that they feel that your dog should not make a move on soemone unless you tell it to do so.

I then read that tohers want that but they also want their dog to be able to make a judgement call with regards to going after someone.  Some say that the dog may need to act if I am not around and you don't want them to be like a robot and only act on commands.

Which is correct and which is wrong?  Is the later even possible?
Any examples would be apprciated.

 I frankly don't know which is the correct but I imagine it will be on command in your presence, anyhow what I really want to comment here and it is a sort of question too:
I think obedience training puts a big stop to a dog's freedom to decide and act on its own and that's why a dog owner might get killed by an attacker without his or her dog taking any action especially if owner loses ability to give orders to the dog during the attack that is assuming it is a PP trained one.

Ibrahim 

Ibrahim....I wonder is that why many traienrs say that unless you want a "pet" you should not put a lot of OB on a puppy.  You just let him be a pup so that you don't dimish or stop him from being a natural thinker.

 Ace952,

As a matter of fact I am the last one to talk about training I will just put my hand in yours and wait for the good guys input on this, I enjoy reading training and corrections to dog behaviors ast these two aspects are my weakest.
Ibrahim

I've sat down and had a talk with my Huskies before. They KNOW to call 911 if an intruder comes in the house if I'm not there.  

Ace, Great topic!

I think first we need to think about the type of dog we are training or living with. Is it a working line dog ? If not is it capeable of doing protection work to start with? Are we starting from a puppy? 

If we are starting from a puppy I feel it is best to first start the training with socializing him and taking him everywhere. Personally I don't start obedience or at least formal obedience until the puppy is around 4 or 5 months old. I continue to take him to as many places as possible subjecting him to different stimulis and obstacles like walking in a busy town , up and  down open steps, having him see cars and trucks, lots of people, loud noise  etc.... This is what I call basic street work. What I feel happens here is this type of training really builds the bond between handler and dog. This is most crucial in my opinion.

A well bred dog with a strong bond with his handler that has been subjected to and shown to conquer many different types of stimulis over time, will be the type of dog that will start to develope a 6th sense. After this is acomplished and depending on the type of protection training you do the sky is the limit !!!

Now is when I start training real life protection scenerios, in the town not on a training field. At night is the best time when you don't have too many on lookers if you know what I mean. Training in and around your home, car etc...

Hope this helps and good luck.

I recall a story when Max was setting the standard talks about this great story to answer your question.  Max puts the dog in the middle of the field in a down stay. Max is on horse back riding right at the dog.  The dog only breaks the down at the last second to perserve life and bites the horse on the neck.  He said something about that is what the dog should be like.

Please correct me if I have remembered this story in correctly as it has been a while and I can not remember where I read it.

But I would think if a dog is not trained in protection whether listening to owner or dog making the call the dog may not respond to protect you as he hasnt been trained for that. You just might have to run from the threat with your dog. A dog on his own without training may understand that someone walking to you is not a threat but someone assaulting you is and respond. It depends on the dogs training or lack there of or just the dog himself.
Reggie

My dog is trained to respond to my commands to engage by both hand signals or verbal signals.  He is trained to engage a completely passive subject as well as a combative subject.  He is also trained as all of our Police K9's in "Handler Protection."  'Handler Protection" simply means he can engage a person who makes an aggressive movement towards the handler.  Someone grabbing, hitting, tackling, pushing or punching the handler will automatically be engaged by the dog with out any command given.  The dog reacts on his own and will seriously defend the handler. 

To answer the original question, our dogs are trained to do both.  However, I usually do not let the dog decide or make judgment calls on his own. He also does not need a command t protect "his" car, house or property. 

With that training comes great responsibility and a certain (great)  amount of liability.  That is one of the main reasons we never, ever, never..... let citizens pet our Police Dogs.  With a dog trained n that way, you as a handler have to be hyper vigilant and always on guard.  One thing I've learned over the years is that many people are stupid.  Average citizens are not always the sharpest tools in the shed.  When I do demos, I explain how the dog is trained and my dog is not "Lassie" or Fluffy the poodle.  He's working, he doesn't know you and doesn't want you petting him or coming up and hugging him, just like I don't.  It never fails that someone walks up to me and say "Can I pet your dog" or just reaches out to pat him on the head.  I explain again that he is trained to protect me and that I do not allow anyone to pet him while we are working.  Then I get the "but dogs love me, he won't bite me."  I reply "he doesn't love you and I can assure you he doesn't want to be petted by you."   I love it when the parents send their 4 or 5 year old child running up to pet the dog.  Especially, when in a crowd at a fair or a big sports game.  I have to wonder what can the parents that just told the 4 year to run and pet the police dog be thinking? 

So, yes we train both.  We have never had an accidental bite or a bad bite in our K9 units history,  on a citizen.  Other cops have not been so lucky, but they don't count.

Jim

Good for you and your unit, Jim!

I remember reading a true account of dogs that were being trained to take part in WWII. They had been volunteered for service by their owners. This one particular dog, a smallish white dog (possibly a Samoyed) just COULD NOT be persuaded to attack the agitator, or the weighted sack the agitator was using to tease her. Her handler was about to wash her out of the program, and send her back home.

Then, the agitator accidentally hit the handler in the face with the sack. The sharp-cornered piece of wood that was stapled inside to give it weight hit the handler on the forehead, knocking him over and drawing blood.

The little white dog attacked the helper with a ferocity that would have done credit to a 90 lb. GSD!

I've never forgotten that story, though I know I was a child when I read that book. (If anyone recognizes this story, PLEASE post the title of the book. I'd love to have a copy of it!

Some dogs need a real threat like that to set them off