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by Wolfinbok on 31 May 2010 - 16:05
I have seen civil drive in puppies from Border patrol lines
as young as 3 months. But in Malinois I watch more of a slow growth
in there civil drive, and fast growth in Pray and defence. Civil drive to me is a sharp,
hard and confident drive. It is the back bone of courage under
pressure. Here are three popular type of dogs to consider.
#1 One Rodin du Calvaire Acacia, These type of dogs need
training started right away, they will show civil drive very
early. #2 A' Tim males start much later but they just keep
building in civil drives until you are saying ok...that plenty.
By the time they are 3 years old there drives are sometimes
over the top. #3 Klem vom Roten Falken males, I think go more in
spurts, but show civil very young with a duality to there nature.
You must keep up on there courage building all through there
early development to maintain good structure and balance.
Klem type of dogs fit in perfectly to the text book of Schutzhund
and IPO training programs. But Klem dogs are by no means the best choice.
All 3 of these dogs are good choices if you approach your training to fit their development.
My favorite to train, is the slower more forgiving if you screw up,
developing dog that by the time he is 3, have what it takes
to do Ring sport or IPO. You need a good training program
for what you are breeding or training or buying already trained.
Always talk to your breeder about his bloodline. And what to
expect from your dog when he gets older. Seek out the best kennels,
they should know there bloodlines. Any combination of these type
of dogs can set the stage for civil drive development in your new puppy.
Yes or No Comments?
by nierlenders ringsport malinois on 31 May 2010 - 17:05
pups with very high prey drive will show "agression" when provoced.
this is not to be confused with civil drive,which can only occur and develop at older age, lets say starting at +/- 1 year.
i also think you missed the dog which throws the most of his civil drives : zodt
maybe because he was not used for breeding that much.
the most civil dogs i bred are out of a combination of zodt and a'tim offspring
e.g. nierlenders egbert nierlenders evgeny
www.malinois.be
by Wolfinbok on 01 June 2010 - 01:06
Excellent comment, I have had just one female puppy show pronounced
civil drive at 3 months. She would not back down. It worried me, and a friend of mine
said don't worry about it, you just might have a really good dog. He was right, she
turn out very nice, was a beautiful dog to, East German line. She was like picking up a
round of oak wood. Very strong bitch.
Zodt, I remember this dog when Bart Bellon first got him, very nice dog bred on very good NVBK lines.
I have two Clip vom Roten Falken granddaughters. I know you use him, in your breeding. My females mother
is half Clip and Half Dutch ( a Larco sister out of PDT) . There father is out of French and Belgium Ring dogs.
Just looking at Evgeny's pedigree I see some very good combinations for civil drive. What I see out of
Clip is high Tracking and Protection scores. He is my favorite Malinois bloodline out of west Germany.
I like Clip a little bit more than Klem as grandfather. Klem is by far bred more and to some really good
bitches. But Clip's scores always reflected high in protection and tracking. He is also a product of a
magic cross. And my girls show it as well. There is a dog today out of some good NVBK lines like
Zodt and A'tim, his name is Eierem van het Beenhouwerk, another very good producer is
Veomar van het Gronentenhof. I hope to see Evengy's progeny some day. I remember you
saying this is a really good dog, Zodt. I had talked to you when you just got your female, I sent
you an Email, I was doing some training in California with a Schutzhund club. I was sending Emails
to you and Knut Fuchs about the same time. The DMC was just getting started and Klem was just
starting to win for Knut. But like alot of people Bart was my motivation to switch to Belgium and French
Ring sport. But I still like Schutzhund very much. It gives more opportunities and is much bigger than Ring.
But not better of cause. Ring is by far the best dog sport. French or Belgium.
Ik ben een Belgie aan de bone!! I like Belgium trainers and Belgium dogs ,and Belgium Lady's.
by BabyEagle4U on 01 June 2010 - 17:06
by Phil Behun on 02 June 2010 - 03:06
by Wolfinbok on 02 June 2010 - 16:06
You are building a very good foundation, are you sure you can handle these dogs,
you may have to seek out a Belgium trainer LOL!. Bonito is a very masculine looking male,
I remember those dogs had been used alot in Danish and Finnish military breeding
programs ( Benito) . Very nice. Benito's picture looks almost high definition, I like
that it captures the quality of the dog in movement. Very good mix with German lines.
Civil drive should be fairly pronounced. I am a big Master fan as well, good direction
for breeding.
by BabyEagle4U on 02 June 2010 - 23:06
Also, can civil drive and/or defense drive be surpressed in a dog. In other words, can a dog inherit civil drive, yet channel one drive or both (civil or defense) into prey by training or until further training ? Just wondering.
by Wolfinbok on 03 June 2010 - 00:06
Civil drive is like Mike Tyson fighting because he likes to fight and
is confident he can win. Has nothing the do with protection or fear biting.
Sigourney Weaver, fighting the Alien to protect the little girl in the
movie Aliens is Protection or Defence drive. Prey drive and hunt drive are very close
but prey drive does not require a any tracking. Prey drive is running down something and
grabbing a hold of it, stopping it.
To answer your question about channeling, you work your dog in
prey or defence which ever one he does best in.
Both gears/drives, will get the dog to accomplish the same
task but will achieve it in a different way. This leads you into bigger
arguments about what kind of training, what style, what breed.
The thing to start with is, recognizing what drive your dog is in, and what
drive he works best in. Prey or defence.
by Christopher Smith on 04 June 2010 - 04:06
Not everything a dog does is because of some type of drive. Some things are instincts and/or personality traits. Instincts cannot be diminished very much but personality traits tend to be a combination of instincts and enviroment.
Drives have goals.
by Wolfinbok on 04 June 2010 - 17:06
Maybe you should clarify what you are asking? Because when you work your
dog in protection, you have only have two choices, Defence or prey Drive.
Race horses have two leads, right and left, like all horses, but there are a lot of gears in those two leads. Same thing with defence and pray drive in dogs.
A horse out of California called Out of the Fog, was said to have gears
the jockey has never used. When I see civil drive in some very tough dogs,
I think this dog has gears I have never used.
It is a good point that Chris is making that you should not reduce every aspect of the dog, into drives alone. You must look at the over all dog. But I can't stress enough how important
it is to know what you looking at when working your dog in protection. Is he in pray drive or defence drive? You may find your dog has 3 gears in pray, but 5 in defence. Or just the opposite.
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