attitude - Page 1

"I know more about protection work than you will ever know as you have a closed mind, are too emotional about the work, and haven't been around long enough to even know what you are talking about." - from an earlier thread about stick hits Later someone else questions the owner's lack of experience, stating more or less that they don't know enough to even evaluate what is proper or not, or have an opinion on it. Ok, forget which helper people are attacking or defending. Forget about stick hits and breed surveys... Let's talk about this attitude. There are helpers out there that will respond like this, almost verbatim, if questioned on ANYTHING. This is usually followed by a recitation on how many years they have been in the sport (I think the average is 25? 30? years), and that the dog is a piece of crap and the handler is an idiot with no right to question anything. Hate to say it, but everyone starts somewhere. Some people did it 25 years ago, some people are doing it now. If it's my dog, I think I should have a right to question things, and if the helper, coach, or in the case of the above quote, person from the WDA can't give any other response than to tell me that I am an idiot with no experience and no rights, well, sorry, but that's just not correct. How about education in the sport? How about supporting the newbies? After all, the sport will die all too fast without them. Is it in ANYONE's best interest to treat people this way? Is it in the best interest of the breed or the sport? I am NOT refering to the "stick hits" thread, any certain helper, or club. I'm simply questioning the quote above that represents an all-too-common attitude among the 'pro's. As hard as I try, I can't find justification for this kind of attitude. Don't jump on me about who was right or wrong about the stick hits, the repuation of the helper or the owner. Different topic. It's the attitude the gets me - how quickly everyone trashes each other's dogs, skills (or lack thereof), years in the sport (reminder, quantity doesn't always equal quality), and all that. There has to be a better way.

Hey, I agree wholeheartedly! I am a new handler/helper and I see this all the time. New helpers can't work green dogs and green handlers can't really question anything that is going on. Everyone that is relatively experienced distances themselves from the newbies and dosen't offer any advice and or leadership. My club is a typical example of this. We have one Sch.3 dog and his owner never offers me any advice or even a training pointer. Of course whenever there is needless bullshit to be discussed she is right in the middle of it. I also see this same dog and handler make the same mistakes over and over, every week. I can't believe this woman can't offer any advice and is really kind of standoffish to me. This sport already suffers from lack of good leadership! I mean really, I think of the types of people that I have paid money to go and learn from and came away from the seminar burned out and disgusted. Randy Theen being one of these!! I don't know how many times that guy said he ran a dog off the field!! Who gives a shit? And this guy is a bigwig in DVG!If people spend time and money to attend these events the instructors should spend time and effort with each individual, not walk around telling about how they have driven dogs off this field and that. And the people who get involved in this dogsport are really just trying to learn something new and it is thrown at them like some kind of top secret stuff. My next dog will be only taught by me and I will skip the club seen and hire my own helper! I believe a person can train their dog solely based on what is in the Sch. books and get away from the stupid clubs and trials. Of course you will never have a title this way but does it really matter anyway?

jameykc -- sad to see your post, i am very very sorry to hear you get no help -- but then again i hear a like story almost everyday --- -- but as an advocate purely for the GSD -- [and for the record, i do not earn my livelihood from the GSD or exploit it through my breeding--] this is the problem that i harp on -- whether it is Breeding or Training etc,-- the major problem is that people have agendas and motives which ultimately ruin [ any breed ] the GSD and many really don't care about other individuals --thier agenda is firstmost even in this country, USA -- God forbid if you share something you learned or just simply help , but then of course you have to give a seminar -- my friends and myself have never conducted ourselves as such -- for the sake of the dog and the person , we can't help the betterment of either enough --to us that is dog sport --not about a trophy or first place-- we ask for no money / any consideration/obligation -- Sch is used primarily for people to be able to say my dog is breed worhty -- it;s titled [ anty amny are poor tiltes at that], not that it makes their dog breed worthy -- and there are many hypocrisies within this system and it is a shame .. even for training the title -- the clubs are run on monetary agendas-- you know what it costs me to train my dogs with ,my friends in ring training -- $50.oo a year and that is for my NARA registration .. now a belgium ring title / a police dog ...?? why they aren't breed worthy ??-- and a very good V structured dog with exceptiuonal attributes /innate behavioral traits that meet the standard is not breed worthy ?? -- instead of being in Sch for the love of being able to work your dog and develop the breed ... people are after fame/ego and money --although not everybody ,- i have met a great number of people otherwise too, but most in Sch are in it because it is a way for them to gain money .. even if it is a way to show your dog , comes down to money.. another vehicle for the money -- human nature -- you can't help but take things personally ., be stand-offish and get bent out of shape with with emotions/ attitudes --especially if you stake your money/life on it. so if a dog comes off a bite in a trial .. so what.. wouldn't matter if you were truely out there for the love of it ?? so a dog and a person can never make a mistake ?? is that it ?? -- is it the end of the world -- listen ..things happen to even the best dog and decoy/helper ----[ and to side track -the helpers as well as the dogs should have a scorecards as they do in other sports , maybe that will help Sch]. to bad that you have encountered that group -- you are welcomr to e-mail me and i would galdly give you my inout anytime-- no strings attatched

It is best to be in a club. If you don't like the club you are in then find another one even if it is hours away. New helpers shouldn't work green dogs, because new helpers are going to make mistakes. These mistakes will not effect Veteran dogs that much, but may have lasting effects on young dogs. For some one like yourself, jaymekic, I would suggest that you visit other clubs. Build relationships with the Helpers and Training Directors. It's my experience that if a person wants to learn in this sport, people will help them. I understand that in some clubs this is not the case, but there is a reason your club only has one Sch 3 dog. Find a better club, but don't think it is better to do this without a club. You can't underestimate the distractions of a club atmosphere.

There is a big difference between a question, and an accusation. "This is usually followed by a recitation on how many years they have been in the sport (I think the average is 25? 30? years), and that the dog is a piece of crap and the handler is an idiot with no right to question anything." -Laporte I believe any time something like this happens, the helper will be more than open with the handler. Most of the time the helper wants to discuss it with the handler. The problem in this case discussed here is the handler doesn't accept the helper's position. After that nothing else matters. Sometimes helpers make mistakes. It is not easy working a dog, they don't all do the same thing over and over. Sometimes the dogs are a "piece of crap", and sometimes the handler is an idiot. But he always has the right to question what happened. The problem here is not the right to question, but an accusation that the helper injured a dog. This is a strong accusation. The replies to this accusation that I have read are based on the accusation. The replies include information about the incident, and the handler's experience. These are just replies, because it is their opinions that the accusation is based.

The attitude of many dog people has been the reason I have never competed with my dogs, I help others as the helper etc but have sold a few trained dogs but I want to enjoy it so I stay away from the politics most of the time.

I guess I have been one of the lucky ones. I have been involved n the sport for a relatively short time. The breeder of my first female has been nothing short of excellent in providing coaching, advice, and for just being there when needed. I am also a member of club where everyone wants to help everyone else. One of the best breeders in the world(my opinion) belongs to this club, and her advice is also freely given, and encouragement is always there, even if you fail in the trial. So good people and good clubs are there, look for them. Thanks to Andrea&Dave, Tracy, Mary D, Mary S. and all the rest, you are the best.

Desertranger -- i second your position -- ditto about the politics !!-- case in point --for the sport of Sch there are two organizations in this country as most know -- gee wonder why ?? -- and i am confident from your posts that you do sincerely help people !! -- BTW : there are no crap dogs !! and people aren't idiots --dogs and p[eople may grow differnetly and achieve differnetly .it's not about being a superstar -- it's about having fun...[ i admire your attitude desertranger]---- either the dogs do not have the genetic base from poor breeding[in my opinion] or one does not have the experience and/or patience to bring out the potential in that dog or patience until the dog has matured , spiritually . psychologically . mentally/emotinally , and physically-- this coiuld be at 10 weeks or 1.5 years -- in regards to people : -- we have interacted with many of new and experienced poeple , some open , some closed minded -- but we have found that when the dog shows you the way and responds then it is very very easy for that person to now understand and you would be astounded how they will work to better themselves/ dogs--the same way each dog is an idividual and there is NO WAY to train -- so it is with people -- each see and interacts differently but if you can read a dog then you should similarily understan the handler -- if people are idiots -- how on earth can you train an even less intelligent creature ?? no patience for people ..no patience for dogs

I think it is sad that there are those who don't get support from other club members, whether they are new to handling or new to being a helper. I am fortunate! I work with a club, that supports each other, new or experienced. I think maybe new handlers put experienced handlers on pedestals, and don't take the time to ask questions or don't want to show just how novice they are. Then there are the new handlers that come around, see just how much dedication one has to have to the breed and the sport and decide it isn't for them. I think those handlers are the ones that burn out the experienced people. I see some experienced people waiting to see just how much dedication the new person will have to the sport, and the club itself. Do they support other members? do they ask for help? do they listen and actually hear what others say? There is the old saying, "it takes a village to raise a child." Well, I think it takes a whole club to get a dog and handler to title. I see frequently on many boards that the type of club I belong to, is rare. I find that sad!

SCH IS NOTHING LIKE IT WAS BACK IN THE 70'S AND 80'S IT'S ABOUT GREED AND THE LOVE OF MONEY NOW,AND WHO EVER GET IN THE WAY OF THAT WILL BE ATTACK, TOP MEMBERS OF WDA,ATTACK THIS LADY AND HER DOG IN A OPEN FORUM, THATS JUST NOT RIGHT, STEVE IS A VERY GOOD HELPER, AND HAS BEEN AT IT FOR YEARS, AND IM SURE HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING INTENTIONLY TO HURT THESE PEOPLE DOG,SO I'LL BACK HIM ON THIS ISSUES, BUT FOR TOP OFFICAL FROM WDA TO ATTACK THESE PEOPLE LIKE THIS IS WRONG, IT BRINGS MORE SADNESS TO SCH IN AMERICA!!!