To the Breeders out there - What would you do? - Page 6

For this buyer to be asking for any kind of compensation at this stage is a mute point...they broke the contract requirements with the litter this dog produced, against their agreement to not allow her to do so.
Regardless of the hip rating outcome, by allowing this they voided their protection for compensation on the dog...plus, they have already been compensated by the sale of their "pets" in the litter.
It's highly possible that the hip outcome could be the result of her being bred at such a young age, done when she herself is still producing and forming her own bone growth, and is asked now instead to provide her own needed calcium and nourishment to give to her growing litter inside her. This is the reason we know not to Xray while the bitch is in heat, because those pregnancy hormones are raging, and the same is true for following having whelped a litter, depending on the length of time the pups have been born and weaned from the dam...these hormones continue to flow for some time following birthing and weaning of the pups.

About the suggestion in a previous thread to let this owner have a discounted price on a new puppy...unfortunately for me if I would ever have to be faced with this scenario, my answer would be no on a new puppy, even if they did pay part of the purchase price again. This is because it's possible the second dog would follow suit to the same outcome as the first.
In my mind it is similar to my views about owners who contact me, asking for (to purchase) another pup because their dog has escaped from their yard or when someone let them out without supervision (no fenced area) and the dog runs out on the street and gets hit and killed...or is stolen as it's wandering around aimlessly. It's also the same as I view an owner who lets their dog ride loose in the back of an unsecured pick up truck bed, and who's animal is thrown out of the vehicle onto the road, being hit by the oncoming car behind them.
It's my policy not to sell a NEW pup to owners who are calling me because they just lost their pup to these kinds of accidents, whether they are my pup originally or not...my answer must be "sorry, I can't sell you my puppy". IMO There is no justifiable excuse for these things..no different than letting these things happen to children, as they are both in the same category of care requirements, in that they cannot do it for themselves.
It's up to their caregivers to make sure these things don't happen to them.

Anyone who has been working a long time with raising up these young large breed dogs leans toward the belief that hip dysplasia is not solely due to genetics.  If this were the only reason we have such a disease,  we would have eliminated it long ago just simply by using parents with clear hips and elbows, from lines also with clear hips and elbows.  But this has not been the case.  We have been struggling with this for decades, and now even on OFA's own website as well as writings I have seen issued by the SV, it is now becoming well established in theory that there are quite alot of outside influences that can dictate the overall outcome of a pup as it grows into adulthood; Feeding and environment being two that are given a large degree of responsibility in this. 

This is no different that temperament which does not flourish as we expect it to, when we see a young pup just full of itself before it is shipped, but then it is kept crated, given inadequate socialization etc...and it's obvious that this has a very large impact on the final product of temperament for this particular dog, when it's siblings have all flourished because they were given the social stimulation and encouragement that they required in order to blossom.   Yes, temperament is largely genetic...but it certainly can be severly affected in a negative manner by it's environment.

It is no different with the hips...clinical studies have been done over these many past years, whereby control groups were divided in to two groups.. one group is given very little in the way of calories, fat, no supplements were given and the animals were fed just enough food to sustain them and keep them from becoming unhealthy... the other group was given large amounts of nutritious food, very high in protein and caloric intake, and with supplementation of calcium and additional nutritional supplementation fed them which was designed to promote large and fast bone growth, so as to produce a very large dog as an adult.  The results were that the dogs who were maintained in a thin frame with less caloric intake and no supplementation had the better results for hip quality than those who were overfed and oversupplemented and allowed to become too heavy.

It's been shown over and over that the quality of dogs hips, elbows and even spines, who maintained a thin, healthly body condition far exceed those hips, elbows and spines in adult dogs who were allowed to become fat or obese, and who do not maintain and expend enough energy to keep their bodies lean.   It is really only comon sense...being obvious to the observers of these studies who have come to the conclusion that the young animal's soft growing bones will receive more wear and tear before becoming fully formed if their body has far more weight to carry about, than one that is thin, fit and athletic.  
What makes us believe that pregnancy isn't one of these influences which contributes to the end result of hip ratings, especially in the body of a very young, still forming adolescent dog who is now preparing to whelp a litter?
 

I sure would like to talk to these people, seems they also got a bad deal buying from you like I did.

Why gee Jennifer, you sold me a dog for full price that had malnutrition and pyoderma...imagine that!

What a great looking malnourished, bald dog...in the pictures from the other post........It IS the black puppy, right? 

A contract is only as good as the two people that sign it. In mine I require the puppy to be Vet inspected by the new owner within 7 days of the delivery and the result sent back to me for my files. If I do not get this health inspection that voids the guarantere right from the start. If a problem arises within the first 6 months I will take the puppy back if its returned with akc registration and all shot records are current. I will refund the cost they paid minus any fees I incure to bring the puppy back or a puppy from a future litter, their choice. Cosmetic fees like ears are never returned as is stipulated in my contract. Unless the dog is being sold to a show home or a working home they are sold with a limited registration so they cannot register the puppies if accidents happen. Of course if they bought a show quality or a working quality puppy they have to receive full ownership. I will release the limited registration once a puppy has been titled whether in the show ring or has achieved a working or obedience title. Most importantly I will not deliever a puppy or ship unless it is paid for in full and I have a signed contract with all stipulations agreed to. I agree with the poster above about hip dysplasya. An injury can look like it and the dog actually is free of the disease, especially with elbows which in large dogs that are full of life can be injured easily during the first 6 months. Even a dog that has pano as a young puppy during this time can latter on leave shadows that look like dysplasia and will not pass. I will always guarantee the puppies but after two years I will not refund in cash. I give the owner the option of a new puppy from a current litter or one they want from another and they can keep the dog they have if they so desire. I try very hard to cover all contingencies in my contract for my protection as well as the prospective new owner and will back it up completely.

Well you should stand behind your hip guar. weather she was bred or not,having pups will not make the hips bad,but that said she should privide you with proof the dog has been spayed and that none of the pups out there will have any breeding rights and they should be fixed if dam did indead have pups and if you can verify she truely had HD,this would be fair and if she  cant provide you with all that then the contract should be null and void

a contract needs to be honored on both sides. While most of what is put into a contract is to protect the breeder, some clauses are to protect the dog, such as not breeding before a certain age or before h/e certification.

the breeding may have been accidental, selling the pups from a bitch with h/d was not. at this point I would consider the contract void.

I would make an effort to get the dog returned (up to purchase price), to prevent this "accident" from happening every 6 months.  I would also consider paying for spay. there is no way I would replace with another pup.

Rik

Just went back and read the whole thread and see the dog was 14 mo. when sold. That kind of puts a different spin on things.

Kind of hard for me to phantom selling or buying a dog at this age without pre-lims, but I learned that the hard way also.

If this is the case and since you asked, I would refund the purchase price on proof of spaying. I would also pay for spay, but I would work out the details and price beforehand. I would not replace with another puppy as it doesn't seem an ideal situation.

Unless I missed something else, this whole situation could have been avoided.

Rik