Using punishment in animal training - Page 1

Came across this article online, with a video of trained lions intended to prove some point about dog training... thoughts?
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/dog-saving-network/2010/10/instant-karma-a-few-reasons-not-to-use-punishers-in-training.html

IMO, Lion= wild.  Dog= domesticated.  Different animals.

Funny this thread should come up this evening when I just finished watching a pride of lions bring down a full grown male giraffe on the National Geographic channel.

Nope, I agree totally. Apples and oranges, IMO!

The all-positive method didn't work in teaching, as it failed to prepare kids for the harsh realities of the world. Same thing in dog training. You think dogs don't correct each other? Just watch a mother and her pups!

I have a teenage female that is starting to throw her weight around and take advantage of the fact she's taller than my other two dogs. They ganged up on her yesterday, and put her in her place. She was down on the ground, with one of them holding her by the throat, and the other going for her belly! Yeah, that surprised me, but it wasn't a real attack, just a reminder by the two older dogs to watch her manners.

"You think dogs don't correct each other? Just watch a mother and her pups!"

To be fair, if you're going to compare dogs and lions to apples and oranges, should you not be doing the same for dogs and humans?

A dog knows you are not another dog. Thus, you issuing a correction to a dog does not have the same effect as a bitch correcting one of her puppies.

I'm not going to make a pro/con argument for corrections, but if we're going to point out the vast differences in species, this one needs to be addressed as well.

It's a pretty wild vid, I don't get in the video why the lion trainer poked him with a stick instead of just getting away!!!  But I guess he was trying to subdue him, because they can't just leave lions on the stage and dip out... I sure would.  The
liion was probably like "a stick???  Bah!!!  Screw you!" Or was is some type of shocking stick, I have no idea...

RE: Alexa, yes they know we're not dogs, but the point is to communicate using a language they understand, and there's a physical aspect to it, too.

Dog + correction = cessation of behavior or change in behavior.

Lion + correction = dead handler.

Think about this. It was, years ago, common practice to bludgeon a captive bear if it did not preform accordingly. It was also common practice for bears to violently maul their trainers.

Not saying bears don't violently maul trainers nowadays, but when you think about it, rage after having been pummeled is a lot more predicable and preventable than some of the other reasons listed for attack (then again, its also preventable by simply not capturing wild animals and forcing them to preform in front of crowds... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Point being, why do something that is potentially damaging, when it can be avoided. You win more flys (or in this case bears) with honey than vinegar.

I have always looked at the relationship of dogs and people to be a million times more complex than the relationship dogs have with each other. I have never seen a puppy receive permanent psychological fallout from being corrected by its mother... the same cannot be said for dogs with people.

Ours is a much more delicate balance. Corrections have their place, I'm not saying they don't, but the fact is we have the capability to do much more harm to our dogs emotionally than another dog ever could. I think that's very powerful, and it says a lot about our relationship with dogs.

How about you treat your lion like you treat your dogs and you have no problems!!!!!!!!

Wow, funny you brought this up. I just got a lion and was going to post to ask how to train it. What are the odds? This board really is valuable! Now I don't feel so stupid buying a lion. See you at the regionals!

...or not...

www.youtube.com/watch

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,666054,00.html

www.youtube.com/watch

Roy Horn raised his tigers from birth, but that cannot remove the predatory instincts. This type of attack is all too common.