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by Diane Jessup on 27 August 2010 - 01:08
I was recently discussing the balance between "bringin it" and "taking it" that exists in my breed. Interestingly enough, so called "barnstormers" or dogs which really "bring it" so to speak, in the context of animal on animal agression such as dog fighting, were looked down upon by "old timers" who felt the animal could dish it out, but perhaps could not "take it". Seems this turns out to be true in a majority (but not all) cases. Old timers like Louis Colby told me that some of their greatest fighting dogs (this was 70 years ago) could run the streets and not get into trouble. They were just calm, confident dogs that didn't get excited. This was when dog fighting was about endurance and gameness - where as today you have idiots putting two dogs in a car trunk and driving up and down the freeway until one dog is dead... today's dog fighter is a punk and a sadist who simply wants to gamble on a dog that can quickly destroy another.
In the breeds who have man as an opponent, let's hear your ideas about which of the dog sports best tests the dog's ability to "bring it" and which to "take it". Both the same, or perhaps one sport does one better than the other?
From what I've seen, (and I've done both ring and schutzhund) I'd say a really GOOD schutzhund drive puts more pressure on a dog than in ring, but that the way MOST schH drives are done, the average ring barage in ring III probably tests "taking it" a bit better.
You see videos of shepherds and mals coming off becuase the decoy stepped on their toe, or twisted their ankle: these can be examples of high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs, but animals which can't "take it".
Give me a dog which doesn't perhaps fly as high, but which stays in a fight through thick and thin.
What do you guys think? Got any good vids to share?
In the breeds who have man as an opponent, let's hear your ideas about which of the dog sports best tests the dog's ability to "bring it" and which to "take it". Both the same, or perhaps one sport does one better than the other?
From what I've seen, (and I've done both ring and schutzhund) I'd say a really GOOD schutzhund drive puts more pressure on a dog than in ring, but that the way MOST schH drives are done, the average ring barage in ring III probably tests "taking it" a bit better.
You see videos of shepherds and mals coming off becuase the decoy stepped on their toe, or twisted their ankle: these can be examples of high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs, but animals which can't "take it".
Give me a dog which doesn't perhaps fly as high, but which stays in a fight through thick and thin.
What do you guys think? Got any good vids to share?
by Feather on 27 August 2010 - 06:08
Do you have some sort of reverence for dog fighers? Old or new, either way, its still 2 animals being encouraged to hurt one another
Interesting idea that a good dog is confident enough to not go crazy when they see the helper they are not out to pick fights, an insecure person would pick more fights than a confident one. A guy in a bar who is an insecure prick versus a really confident guy who only gets into a fight when hes assaulted first. Maybe a comparison but maybe not
Interesting idea that a good dog is confident enough to not go crazy when they see the helper they are not out to pick fights, an insecure person would pick more fights than a confident one. A guy in a bar who is an insecure prick versus a really confident guy who only gets into a fight when hes assaulted first. Maybe a comparison but maybe not
by sueincc on 27 August 2010 - 12:08
Diane you said:
"You see videos of shepherds and mals coming off becuase the decoy stepped on their toe, or twisted their ankle: these can be examples of high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs, but animals which can't "take it". "
Can you please link some videos showing examples of this? I guess the reason for my confusion is other than one very infamous event at which there were a couple of instances of dogs who legs were actually broken, and one who suffered a broken sternum, from bad catches I am not aware of any "high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs who come off from having a toe stepped on. I have never heard any Mali afficianado or working line GSD aficionado complain their dog came off because a toe got stepped on.
"You see videos of shepherds and mals coming off becuase the decoy stepped on their toe, or twisted their ankle: these can be examples of high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs, but animals which can't "take it". "
Can you please link some videos showing examples of this? I guess the reason for my confusion is other than one very infamous event at which there were a couple of instances of dogs who legs were actually broken, and one who suffered a broken sternum, from bad catches I am not aware of any "high flying, hard biting "bring it" dogs who come off from having a toe stepped on. I have never heard any Mali afficianado or working line GSD aficionado complain their dog came off because a toe got stepped on.
by Sam Spade on 27 August 2010 - 12:08
I've accidently stepped on a few toes in my time as a helper. Most of them get pissed. Kinda like whipping the feet.
I think what has me confused is that I think I read that you are pro-dog fighting if it is for gameness?
Sue I remember that trial. Some of those dogs finished their routine with a broken leg. I'd say that is "taking it".
by sueincc on 27 August 2010 - 12:08
You know I also have to say, you can't compare grip sports with dog fighting. In every grip sport, the safety of the dogs is paramount, in everything we do, we strive to protect our dogs, and keep them safe from harm, so to compare them to the poor dogs who's owners are so brutal they force the dogs to fight for their very survival is just not apples to apples. I have on occasion, read posts by people who speak in terms of admiration regarding the "gameness" of fighting dogs or the "glorious" old days. I don't share that admiration, I think it's nothing but base and disgusting, and there never has been anything even close to admirable about it ever. It speaks more to the character of those who would find something valiant in two dogs forced to fight, than it does about the dogs themselves. I guess in short, I just don't get it, and really, I don't want to .
by Mystere on 27 August 2010 - 14:08
Sam and Sue: AMEN!!
by Diane Jessup on 27 August 2010 - 15:08
Hey "Nia", how's your bitch turning out under your training?
If you think I have ANY kind of "reverence" toward dog fighters, please educate yourself by visiting my site, workingpitbull dot com. I believe that will clear up any gossip spread about me by those out to discredit me. Or look at my record of service to my breed and against dog fighting for 28 years. And, even more important, take a look at the "shining examples" who spread that type of gossip and those who make little fear biter attacks like "chiming in" when they don't have the guts to do it themselves. Yeah, exactly! : )
OK, now back to the ACTUAL topic LOL!
I mentioned pit bulls, and the illegal activity of dog fighting because of the interesting correlation between dogs which were not so to speak, "barnstormers" seeming to be the most steady over all. I mentioned this because I was wondering if something like this had been noticed in the sheepdog breeds. Other than the obvious, which is that a super snarly, defensive dog is generally scared to death. I was asking on a more "professional" level, from those with experience with many titled dogs, if they had seen a trend in what "type" of dog can withstand pressure more than others.
Bulldogs were obviously bred to withstand immense pressure when having to hang onto a bull which was trying to kill them. However, those breeds bred to withstand pressure from a human opponent should be bred for a degree of toughness when engaged. So, my question was about the testing mechanism.
Perhaps there are a few real deal trainers out there who can actually contribute to this discussion?
If you think I have ANY kind of "reverence" toward dog fighters, please educate yourself by visiting my site, workingpitbull dot com. I believe that will clear up any gossip spread about me by those out to discredit me. Or look at my record of service to my breed and against dog fighting for 28 years. And, even more important, take a look at the "shining examples" who spread that type of gossip and those who make little fear biter attacks like "chiming in" when they don't have the guts to do it themselves. Yeah, exactly! : )
OK, now back to the ACTUAL topic LOL!
I mentioned pit bulls, and the illegal activity of dog fighting because of the interesting correlation between dogs which were not so to speak, "barnstormers" seeming to be the most steady over all. I mentioned this because I was wondering if something like this had been noticed in the sheepdog breeds. Other than the obvious, which is that a super snarly, defensive dog is generally scared to death. I was asking on a more "professional" level, from those with experience with many titled dogs, if they had seen a trend in what "type" of dog can withstand pressure more than others.
Bulldogs were obviously bred to withstand immense pressure when having to hang onto a bull which was trying to kill them. However, those breeds bred to withstand pressure from a human opponent should be bred for a degree of toughness when engaged. So, my question was about the testing mechanism.
Perhaps there are a few real deal trainers out there who can actually contribute to this discussion?
by sueincc on 27 August 2010 - 15:08
You're funny Diane - anyway can you please post a link to the videos you mentioned? The ones of all those high flying dogs that come off because a toe was stepped on or a minor injury occured? Or is this you once more trying to be provacative?
by Mystere on 27 August 2010 - 16:08
You know, this could be a good discussion of an interesting topic. But....
Obviously, it is simply Diane, as usual, being provocative. What else? Still, the discussion could be interesting. However, Diane then starts perhaps "protesting too much" and entirely unnecessarily, in other words, becomes very defensive.
Diane, my response was NOT to the reference about fighting dogs, but to the reference to dogs coming off the sleeve by Sueinc, as I have also not seen the dogs who bring it unable to take it. There was no need to simply repeat what Sue had already stated so well. Period. Your defensiveness is misplaced...but, also very telling. You might want to watch that.
As it happens, your defensive fear-biting response here rather speaks for itself, doesn't it? LOL
And my bitch is doing quite nicely, thanks!
Oh, but of course, that question was just sarcasm, arising from the fear-biter response , wasn't it? ROFLMAO
Now, if you really want to discuss something with me, rather than snipe on the internet like a ___, pick up the phone. Not that we really have anything to say to each other, obviously. But, try to be adult and let the adults have a discussion, without the childish sniping, huh?
Obviously, it is simply Diane, as usual, being provocative. What else? Still, the discussion could be interesting. However, Diane then starts perhaps "protesting too much" and entirely unnecessarily, in other words, becomes very defensive.
Diane, my response was NOT to the reference about fighting dogs, but to the reference to dogs coming off the sleeve by Sueinc, as I have also not seen the dogs who bring it unable to take it. There was no need to simply repeat what Sue had already stated so well. Period. Your defensiveness is misplaced...but, also very telling. You might want to watch that.
As it happens, your defensive fear-biting response here rather speaks for itself, doesn't it? LOL
And my bitch is doing quite nicely, thanks!
Oh, but of course, that question was just sarcasm, arising from the fear-biter response , wasn't it? ROFLMAO Now, if you really want to discuss something with me, rather than snipe on the internet like a ___, pick up the phone. Not that we really have anything to say to each other, obviously. But, try to be adult and let the adults have a discussion, without the childish sniping, huh?
by malndobe on 27 August 2010 - 17:08
IMO the Ring Sports better test the dogs ability to take it, simply from the sheer amount of time the dog and decoy/helper are interacting, and the freedom the decoy/helper has to work each dog as an individual, vs doing the same moves on every dog.
In an FRIII the face, flee, defense, attack with gun bites are 10-15 seconds each. The bites in the escort and guard of object are shorter. And there is a stopped attack. For a total of 13 bites. During the time the dog is on the bite, the decoy has the chance to try a number of different things to get in the dogs head and run them. And if they see a weakness, but the dog holds on until the end of the exercise, they can still continue to exploit that in the next exercise until the dog does cave. They aren't required to work each dog the same, so if they see one dog has a problem with the hands, they can really push that, if another has a problem with the stick, they can push that, etc. In Sch the bites are 5-10 seconds (not a set time, but that's what I would estimate a catch/drive would take) for a total of 5 bites. Each dog is supposed to be worked the same. So even if a decoy sees a problem, he's not neccessarily allowed to exploit it. IE dog has an issue with the stick, he can't give 8 or 10 hits, he's still limited to 2. I've seen FR Face Attacks where the dog was hit more then 30 times.
I think Sch grades more on the "bring it", but I don't think it actually tests it more.
I'm also picturing the same person doing the decoy/helper work in each sport. It's not a valid comparison otherwise to compare "Fred's" Sch drive (if Fred is the strongest helper you know) to "Jeff's" Ring work (if Jeff is the weakest decoy you know).
In an FRIII the face, flee, defense, attack with gun bites are 10-15 seconds each. The bites in the escort and guard of object are shorter. And there is a stopped attack. For a total of 13 bites. During the time the dog is on the bite, the decoy has the chance to try a number of different things to get in the dogs head and run them. And if they see a weakness, but the dog holds on until the end of the exercise, they can still continue to exploit that in the next exercise until the dog does cave. They aren't required to work each dog the same, so if they see one dog has a problem with the hands, they can really push that, if another has a problem with the stick, they can push that, etc. In Sch the bites are 5-10 seconds (not a set time, but that's what I would estimate a catch/drive would take) for a total of 5 bites. Each dog is supposed to be worked the same. So even if a decoy sees a problem, he's not neccessarily allowed to exploit it. IE dog has an issue with the stick, he can't give 8 or 10 hits, he's still limited to 2. I've seen FR Face Attacks where the dog was hit more then 30 times.
I think Sch grades more on the "bring it", but I don't think it actually tests it more.
I'm also picturing the same person doing the decoy/helper work in each sport. It's not a valid comparison otherwise to compare "Fred's" Sch drive (if Fred is the strongest helper you know) to "Jeff's" Ring work (if Jeff is the weakest decoy you know).
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