Breeding "Fast Normal" or OFA Fair Hips - Page 5

I keep checking back to see if D.H. has weighed in on this topic. She has a clear understanding of hips/ZW numbers/A-stamps, ect. I am waiting with baited breath. :)

i would not have a problem breeding a a2 fast normal there is nothing wrong with this and i would not have a problem with a3 noch zugelassen,you can breed both a3 and get all a normals,and you can breed a normals and get a3 you have to reasearch your dogs,,,

Quote: "What I am saying it that I have NEVER heard of a GSD's hip joint being too tight and causing problems." That's fine. If you've never heard of it, then say you've never heard of it, not that it's impossible or try to relate it to race cars. The people that will see these issues are the ones who actually use their dogs in working (ie. sled pulling or herding as a true job). I don't know many farmers that rely on Vets to do anything with their dogs unless one is sick or something. Last I heard, this was still being studied, but initial conclusions were that pulling type breeds (sled dogs) benefitted from tighter hip joints and herder type breeds benefitted from a small amount of laxity (compared to those of sled dogs) and these were based on the type of movements required of the dogs to do their jobs.

Where is this "study"?

hmmm seems to me that I DID say that. Otherwise you could not have copied and pasted it. I am ALSO asking if anyone in the entire GSD world has ever heard of a problem with a hip joint being too tight. If no one has heard of it, then it leads one to believe that it is next to IMPOSSIBLE.

i know this is not a popular thought,but how about temperment working drive then hips,people will talk about how there dogs are ofa.....but never about temperment and working drive and being cleared head,so if they don t have the temperment,working drive or clear head what does it matter what there hip rateing is. because if they don t have them ,they don t need to be bred,,,,,,,but thats just me ..lol.....

true!!!

Just a few other ideas on breeding to limit HD. I know of one breeder (now retired) who bred approximately 10 liters out of one stud dog with OFA Excellent to several different bitches, each of which had OFA good (all with OFA elbows). All puppies from four weeks on were supplemented with glucosamine/chondroitin chewable tablets (100mg/1500mg ie large doses). In follow-up x-rays, no hip dysplasia in any of the puppies, with most very good hip confirmation. Some research suggests that only chondroitin (and not glucosamine which is apparently not helpful) prevents joint inflamation (chondroitin is apparently a cox 3 inhibitor which in theory would minimize or eliminate hip joint inflammation which has been theorized to be the actual cause of much of the HD--supposedly long term developmental arthritic changes to the hip joint). I once read a research monograph that any hip joint inflamation often causes a build up of too much fluid in the joint which can generate laxity by pushing the ball out of the socket (this can happen temporarily for some bitches just before or after their season. I know of another breeder of over 30 years who only uses sires and dams with OFA good hips and OFA elbows (he x-rays all puppies at six months old). Result, no disabling hip dysplasia, and most able to certify as OFA good hip-he has done this for at least 5 generations). I believe that is a GSD is anesthesized too deeply, the hip muscles can relax too much and create laxaty in the joint that isn't normally there. I suggest folks research the "norberg angle" a respected indice of HD diagnoses (look it up on the web).

Dr. William Inman who is a Washington state Vet feels that canine hip dysplasia is a frequently over-diagnosed and mis-diagnosed condition in veterinary practice. It is his opinion that hip dysplasia is genetically predisposed, but he has found in his practice that there are dogs with radiographically normal hips that display HD symptoms, and also found symptom-free dogs with coxofemoral joints that look "like a bomb went off in them." In 5 to 18-month old dogs with HD symptoms and/or an HD type joint confirmation, he usually finds a subluxation at T8-T10 thoracic vertebra, impinging the nerves that innervate the peraspinal muscles and the iliopsas muscle, which attaches to the femoral head, pulling it forward. He has stated that this causes subluxation of the hip joint which leads to muscle spasming, which then causes anterior traction of the femur in the hip socket, thus flattening the Joint. He has stated that by reducing this subluxation, one can reverse the progression of hip dysplasia by curing the musculo-skeletal dysfunction. Dr. Inman has apparently relieved the symptoms of more than 3,500 dogs by doing so. Conclusion: HD may be mediated by irregularities in spinal innervation and confirmation. I would never use a dog for breeding with an unresponsive or "dead" tail which drags off the rear hocks or a dog that appears weak in the rear, or any dogs with spinal myopathy or innervation problems in their known pedigree history. All dogs I have had with excellent rear muscle mass have been HD free. Some vets have theorized that forced stacking of a dog in a show ring pose can damage the spinal nerves contributing to later lameness and HD symptoms.

Interesting information about the chondroitin, Preston. I hadn't heard of using that supplement for the purpose. Do you know Dr. Bardens? Way back in the 70's he pioneered palpating puppies's hips for looseness surmising he could identify 6 to 8 weeks old puppies that would xray dysplastic at maturity. I believe he also designed the wedge/fulcrum method of doing hip xrays. Both of these methods were the lead-ins to the Penn Hip program. He also said that if a puppy were crated most of the time for, I think, the first 6 months of it's life so that it remained in a seated postition with its rear legs in abduction, the puppy would never develop HD. This method was patterned after the method to "cure" hip laxity in human babies and was touted as the canine version of the spreader cast. I am all for anything that will give any puppy a jump start toward normal hip conformation. My concern is that, even though there may be methods of preventing the development of this condition, we are still not ridding the gene pool of the dogs that are poor breeding risks. Those dogs that are supplemented, kept crated, etc may end up with radiographically normal hips, but should they (or their parents) be considered good breeding risks? I don't know how I feel about it. Should puppies be left to develope "naturally" without special supplementation or should we do all we can to surpress the expression understanding that may not be a good longterm plan? I know breeders who have vets who will agree to manipulate postioning on dogs with questionable hips until they are able to finally get an xray that will pass OFA with a fair. One I know used 3 different vets until she got an xray on one specific dog that was good enough to get an OFA number. I certainly would not consdier that dog a good breeding risk. Manupulation only works on dogs with laxity, if there is degenerative changes, it won't make a difference. This begs the question - are we looking to get OFA numbers or to identify the best hips for breeding?