Breeding "Fast Normal" or OFA Fair Hips - Page 3

if we breed only for hips, that's what we'll end up with and lose everything else in the process. same goes for any other trait. if too much focus is placed on a single attribute, all else will suffer. i believe that this should be breeding criteria: "what does this dog have to offer to the breed as a whole?" if the dog has nothing special to offer, then what is the sense in breeding it at all? if the dog does have something to offer, then that dog should be paired with another candidate that would compliment in other areas. oversimplified, but that's my 2 cents worth.

I have a question. Some people have said (written) that they prefer to breed to OFA Good or "a" normal hips. I am under the impression that OFA Excellent is the equivalent to "a" Normal OFG Good is Fast Normal and OFA Fair is NZ. Am I mistaken in my understanding? I have had a few dogs X rayed with no issues but I have heard from several breeders with plenty of experience that the positioning in an X Ray in some cases can be the difference between A Normal & Fast Normal hips. So to say that you would not breed to a Fast Normal dog is a little restricting to say the least. I guess it just boils down to preferrence if you feel better not breeding to Fast Normal that is fine but just think of how many dogs would have gotten A Normal had the positioning been correct.

Again, excellent replies and I appreciate the info.

DesertRangers, That website has some good information but is very subjective. I have seen a dog X Ray go Fast Normal in Germany and then Go OFA Excellent in the US. A couple of huge problems with these ratings are they are evaluated by differrent people, using different grading systems. Not to mention as previously stated many times in this post A normal & A normal does not always mean A normal. Any combbination of passing hips can create a1 a2 or a3 hips or worse. Not Just Jeck, but there have been several very influencial dogs that were not OFA Excellent or a1 hips that had they not been bred would have been a tremendous loss for the GSD world.

I don't know where you get your figures from Blitzen, but this is NOT correct: "The SV says 70% environmental..." In its "100 Jahre Deutsche Schäferhund"-book, the SV informs on HD and says: I quote: "50 bis 60 Prozent beträgt der Erblichkeitsgrad bei HD". Should anyone be willing to translate from German to English, please feel free to translate a comment of a Vet Professor on the ZW-subject. "Es ist sicher so, dass Massenselektion aufgrund der Bewertung des Phänotyps eines Einzeltieres in der Zucht gegen HD nur bedingt erfolgreich sein kann (Erbgang: Phäntyp - Genotyp). Wenn zusätzlich mit belasteten Tieren gezüchtet wird, wird sich der Erfolg weiter verringern. Die ZW-Schätzung ist eigentlich ein guter Ausweg, da damit nicht der Phänotyp nur eines Tieres, sondern auch Verwandteninformationen berücksichtigt werden. Damit fangen die Probleme, wie Sie richtig sagen an: Wenn nur die HD-freien Tiere in den ZW Eingang finden, also eine Vorselektion stattfindet, kann das System nicht funktionieren. Sicher nicht weil die Methode schlecht ist, sondern wegen "menschlichen Versagens". Das gilt grundsätzlich für sämtliche Massnahmen, bei denen auf irgendeine Art auf den Phänotypen zurückgegriffen werden muss. Ein Ausweg ist schwierig, aber möglich. Man könnte den ZW immer mit der Prozentzahl der untersuchten Tiere kombinieren: ZW 85 (27%): der ZW des Tieres beruht auf 27% untersuchter Tiere. Dieser ZW müsste dann eben als schlechter eingestuft werden als ein ZW 95 (70%). Der Widerstand der Züchter dürfte erheblich sein, allerdings könnte damit der ZW wirklich gewichtet werden. Andere Möglichkeiten sind problamtischer aber auch denkbar: ein ZW wird nur angegeben, wenn z.B. mindestens 50% der Tiere untersucht sind. Rx- Untersuchungen für anerkannte Züchter obligatorisch zu machen geht wohl nicht, da fehlen die rechtlichen Grundlagen völlig. Deshalb laufan alle Möglichkeiten darauf hinaus, dass der ZW ein gute Instrumenz ist, aber gewichetet werden muss." Another expert informed as follows on HD: "ebenso bekannt ist, dass längst nicht alle hunde geröntgt werden, und dass von den offensichtlich dysplastischen die wenigsten in der offiziellen statistik erscheinen. wohl bekannt ist auch, dass in deutschland (und von da stammen ihre daten) ebenso wie in ländern, welche die bilder beim SV in deutschland bewerten lassen, die deutschen schäferhunde seit jahren viel zu milde bewertet werden. in realität sind nur 20-25% (je nach untersuchtem jahrgang) der geröntgten DSH HD frei (A)." And Stephen, please don't be offended. I did not mean to. I was merely warning for overrating the ZW-procedure. And I never informed about ZW-data. Please do read our messages again. I was only trying to find out where Sit vom Wildsteiger Land was, as my new SV-Genetics did not yet come in.

S Vargas, A rough rule-of-thumb for the S.V. rating versus the OFA rating is as follows: "a" Normal (a1): Covers the span of the O.F.A. ratings of Excellent, Good, and the edge of Good/Fair. "a" fast-Normal (a2): Covers the span of the O.F.A. ratings of Fair to Borderline hip dysplasie. "a" noch Zugelassen (a3): Covers the span of the O.F.A. ratings of Mild hip dysplasie to nearly moderate hip dysplasie. Past that, both the S.V. and the O.F.A. do agree on these two (2) ratings: S.V. a4 mittlere Dysplasie=OFA Moderate dysplasie. S.V. a5 schwere Dysplasie=OFA Severe dysplasie. The final grade by the S.V. is a6; which indicates the dogs passed the hip examination by an organization other than the S.V. such as the B.V.A., F.C.I. or O.F.A. I do keep an MSExcel spreadsheet that shows the scoring comparison between all of the hip certification agencies save for the Penn-Hipp. If you would like a copy, just send me an e-mail. Bob-O

LuvCzechDawgz you quoted "Brittany you've got a lot to learn in just going by the ZW's and simply basing it on "OFA Fair hips"." It's matter of an opinion, really. Some people dont have a problem with breeding to A fast normal dogs and some people do, like I. If indeed Jeck Noricum has HD-noch zugelassen, according to what this site has, and to the website, http://home.sprintmail.com/~impactgsd/astamp1.html he bascially has lite HD and yet he was awared VA status.. Is this what our breed is suppose to indicate? Having health problems with the hips? I have nothing against Jeck, however In my opinion... any dog with having the suspiciousor to have HD or have lite hips should NEVER been bred in the first place.. Yes this meant that any dog with Jeck lines should never exists... As his progeny now will produce Hereditary lite HD in the future.. with recessive genes. WERE TRYING to demolish the hip problem in this breed but yet nobody is trying hard enough to establish this.

Jantie, I got those figures from another post to this board which I assumed was correct. Obviously you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. The percentage really doesn't matter, 50, 60, 70% whatever. What matters is that the SV considers the expression of HD to be greatly influenced by environmental factors while OFA does not and considers the environment to be a factor only so far as contributing negatively to an already dysplastic dog. Have I made myself clear this time?

Jantie, Don't worry about offending me, if I deserve it, let me have it. I've taken much more in this life, than what an internet post, ever could deliver. I just wanted to ensure you took my post in the context that it was intended. This is a topic that continues to hold my interest, and I must admit, "ziegenfarm" makes a great point. There is so much more to this dog than it's hips. Having said that, I know what we all want is a genetically winning/healthy animal. Stephen

Brittany, when you get out of the theory mode and actually do some breedings, then maybe your opinion will count for more. Right now, you have no experience to back up your opinions and people are trying to politely point that out to you. Regarding the original topic: OFA Fair and 'a' fast normal is still a passing hip rating. The systems are different and laxity of hips at 12mos (when the SV gives their ratings) can play into it...as well end up with dogs that get better ratings when they do OFA. There is more to look at than just the dog in front of you. As long as the hips are passing and there is a good set of gentics behind the dog, then there shouldn't be a problem. Sometimes you can't get the traits you're looking for without being a little lenient in one area or another. To give one trait emphasis over all others does not create a balanced dog. For those that would only breed 'a' normal or OFA Excellent/Good dogs, they are really limiting their gene pool resources...especially since the breed average is OFA Good/Fair or 'a' fast normal. Then you have to question what's best for hips of a working dog, some recent studies showed that many of the herding breeds had more laxity than those that do other work (sled dogs for example). Sled dogs pull in one direction (forward) and herding dogs have to make rapid turns, starts, stops, etc. Too tight of a joint can be detrimental to the ability of a herding dog to do its job effectively.