Breeding "Fast Normal" or OFA Fair Hips - Page 2

Let me add also, just because you breed 2 "A-Normals" does not mean you will not encounter hip dysplasia. With my last litter, both parents(and ancestors) were "A-Normal" and the mother had an extremely low ZW number. One of the pups were severely dysplastic(she is a super animal otherwise). (I took her back and will replace her for the family for those of you that are wondering.) You can do all the homework, run all the numbers, and mate with the "best" but nothing is guarenteed, in life. I have seen 2 "Fast Normals" produce "A-Normals". I concur with the sentiment that we should breed up, just know, this does not eliminate totally, HD. This was my first experience with HD with any of my dogs(since 1982)and was an eye opener. I have only been breeding for close to 4 years, and I guess if we are all honest, we will ALL encounter this problem, from time to time. Stephen

I would mention that I had a Vet tell me that correct positioning of the hips is critical to get an accurate reading of the X-ray. That could explain the cases where a second follow up one differs from the original.

Hi all! And Happy Easter. Stephen, you wrote: "With my last litter, both parents(and ancestors) were "A-Normal" and the mother had an extremely low ZW number..." Now this is exactly what IS the problem. One takes an "A-mom" and an "A-dad" (with good ancestors) and hopes for the best. It is a good intention, but it is not enough. Not in 2006! And relying on the ZW is very treacherous. Now do tell me, Stephen, how many siblings mother and father, and grandparents had. I bet very few were (officially) x-rayed. Now why would you rely on a ZW, with too many unknown results in the family? Somewhere in those lines, there are carriers, and one needs to find out where. Why were some of the dogs not x-rayed? Or why did they hide/withhold the results? (Some will come and tell you, the farmer doesn't want to know the outcome of the x-rays of his watchdog. I know that! But the "serious" breeder will want to know and gladly pay for the costs and the information!) Can you check offspring of aunts and uncles? Etc... There is more to it than taking A-moms and A-dads, and breeders have the responsability to trace the HD in their lines. They could include the x-ray fee in their sellingprices, and enforce x-raying at one year of age.... (Very noble of you to take the HD-dog back! I have a different experience, as you know.)

I do agree with most comments made about this topic, and i will add one thing that i stated before : "PUT THE BEST TOGETHER AND HOPE FOR THE BEST " One can do as much research as he has time to do, it still will not garuantie for what nature does in the end. And yes, Jantie, the ZW is in fact a bit confusing. One would assume taht if the ZW is low that there are only HD "a" dogs invólved.....nope, there are many factors counted in and on top, the average was not measured on "a" but on "a2".... Desert Ranger you are completly right, there is a procedure in place how it should be done..... not every vet is capabel of doing it right. We are all, including our vets, human beeings and are not free of making mistakes. Anyway, i wish all of you a Happy Easter ! Ulli

Jantie, Don't get bent out of shape with me, because of your bad experience, I was not the one that screwed you. I did not say I was "relying" on the ZW and not tracing the lines. The ZW number is just another "tool" in the bag. You read a whole lot into that post, that I did not put there. If anything, my post was demonstrating that you cannot rely exclusivly on that. I was responding to previous posts and just threw in my experience, based on the "context" of the conversation. All the research I did for 7 generations back or so indicated it was a safe breeding. I did not say you take and "A mom" and "A dad" and that's all you do. And all anyone has to go on is the dogs that were x-rayed, so of all those that were not how do you research that, Jantie? Go back and read the previous post to mine, and read my post, "in context" to that established dialog. Jantie, if ZW numbers are so insignificant, why did waste the time to email me privately(in the past) and requested that info on a specific dog? Stephen

I must add with the SV now standing behind the statement HD is 30% genetics and 70% aquired, that opens up another can of worms.

I have known and have read alot about HD and it can be confusing with all the "exceptions" to what everyone says or does but we all know to be careful. The two worst things are for anyone to breed without research and to breed just knowing they may have a problem (letting the money aspect make a decision). Thanks again for everyone's input as I appreciate the experience and knowledge you have shared. Good luck to everyone.

OFA gradings are based on hip joint conformation - and a less than perfectly round head on the ball can cause a dog with great sockets to go "Fair".A slightly short or long neck between the long bone and the head can change the nicest looking hip to a Good or Fair...these things CANNOT be influenced by environment anymore than eye color or angle of shoulder!!!! The skeletal structure is what is evaluated! Yes, improper positioning can affect x-rays as can muscle laxity - and too much pounding on young joints can cause arthritic changes - but the bone shape and angulation do not change. I bred a "FN" female to a "a" normal male and produced an OFA Excellent. I bred an OFA Good female from a strong maternal and paternal OFA producing family to a OFA Fair - "FN" and got 2 OFA Goods, and 3 'eyeballed" at a year to be equivilent to Good...I also have an OFA Fair male from the same male with 2 littermates being goods...but a study of HIS female family shows that his female family produces all over the board - not a significantly higher ratio of Goods than Fairs and [there are several non published but known to have] HD - a male used at stud who is a maternal half brother to his dam is producing high to equal numbers of Fairs to Good, although HE is good, and his PATERNAL lines produces high percentages of Good....so I have to think that the Fair male was as much if not more the influence of the dam's family - the male has produced a very large percentage of goods and 'a' normals who then produced many 'a' normals. The ZW system is not the be all and end all - too many young dogs are done and not entered, and progeny of dogs in other European countries are not taken into account. If the Stud is Belgian and only a small percentage of his progeny are 'a' stamped, the ZW cannot give you a good feel for his production. You have to look at the whole family as far as you can....And Britanny??? Take a look at your own females pedigree!!! in 3 generations 7 'a' normals to 6 "FN" and NZs...

Seems every breeder or organization has their own ideas on the mode of inheritance of HD. The SV says 70% environmental, OFA disagrees. Both have extensive data bases to view. The breeders I know personally who are producing the highest percentage of normal hips are the ones who do the following: Use only dogs with normal hips in their breeding programs. Never use "almost good enoughs", use fairs sparingly. These breeders have been at it long enough to have a good knowledge of the dogs in the pedigree and their siblings. They also tranq or anesthesize their dogs for xrays. Don't kid yourself into thinking it doesn't make a difference, it does with some. Your OFA good dog xrayed without benfit of anesthesia or heavy tranquiliztion just MIGHT be an OFA fair it it were relaxed or your OFA fair might be mildly dysplastic and not get a number at all. I've seen it happen. These breeders do not rely on hip xrays done on dogs younger than 24 months. They also eliminate from their breeding programs any dog that consistantly produces moderate to severe HD regardless of their own hip status. Some think OFA is not reliable and it is a fact that they do make errors. I suspect the SV has their share of errors as well. You cannot consistently use NZ's in a breeding program and expect to reduce the percentage of HD in the progeny. I notice that Jeck's hip record is always sited as an example of an NZ that produced great hips. For one dog like Jeck, there are probably a thousand others with NZ hips that do not prodcue good hips in their progeny.

Blitzen, your post was excellent, I agree 100% and also am a breeder who only breeds adult OFA Good or a-normal hips, with sparingly Fair or fast-normal (and then only with what I considered adequate waiting time to see what that dog was producing before breeding to him/her). I normally completely avoid anything "less" than OFA Good or a-normal in any of my breeding dogs or chosen stud dogs. And in the 12 years I have been breeding, there have been predominantly Goods, some Fairs, a few mild/not passing, but NO crippling or severe HD in my program - ever. In fact the few mild/not passing dogs have worked to advanced working titles and are 100% sound for everything except breeding. So, I am comfortable with my program and will continue with it - with the same ideas as you presented in your post. (I also agree 100% with the x-rays being more accurate with dog under sedation) molly