Cookie training vs Correction training... - Page 1

                        
               I know that there are threads on this topic in the Search Megaboard, however,I enjoy the dialog of current threads.....For those of you not bothered by repeating yourself, please share your thoughts with regard to the two different styles of training.......... 

            I would like to give a brief summery of my situation....I have been training with a group that I am pretty sure falls under" cookie trainers"....I have really enjoyed training with this group and they are very active in the AKC Obedience trials......Just started a new training class with a Schutzhund trainer. I thought it would be profitable to get involved with those involved in the sport of Schutzhund and having a trainer familiar with the GSD. I am as sure as I can be that they would fall under the "correction trainers"..........I think I am a "cookie trainer" at heart....On the other hand I want to be part of a Schutzhund group and training. Is it asking too much to have both????..........Can you train Schutzhund with cookies????...lol...Hope I don't catch hell for this question......be nice....
                                                                                                                                                 Ruger1

                                                                                          

                                                                                           

Most trainers involved in any of the grip sports  have many tools in their tool box, very few fall into 100% motivational or 100% correction  categories anymore, and use whatever is the best tool(s) for the dog at hand,  though of course there are exceptions.  You can train your dog whatever way you want.
 

               Sue...Thanks for the post. I think that both of the trainers use a variety of methods in their training . However, my impression is  that one trainers tends to lean more toward treats for the most part and the other more toward the correction for the most part.....In your experience  do you think that most trainers are open to you incorporating your own style within their training method??? I hope I am expressing my thought clearly....thanks

                                                                                                             Ruger1 


                                                                       

The type of training you utilize is driven by many factors...What does the dog need...What kind of help/assistance does the owner/handler have available...such as their club...etc...and What does the owner/handler have in the way of experience...
Like said in a previous post...most owners/handlers in Schutzhund these days have a number of ways to do the same thing...it just depends on the above factors...Mainly at the point when your talking about an experienced handler...it's what the dog brings to the table in the way of drives and what will work or won't work for the dog...
Most hanlers today have a number of tools that they use...most of the time you will see these people using a number of different tools on/with the same dog...
In saying the above...it's also true that most handlers these days have their favorite ways of training...and if all is right...then they will use these methods...but have many ideas and tools that they'll use if the dog tells them different...
I guess the real thing is that an experienced handler has the ability to read their dog and then decide on what's right or wrong for that particular animal...
This is one reason why Schutzhund is a difficult sport to master...You have 3 phases of work to master and you will use a lot of different tools and methods to get to any title...I think the hardest title to achieve is the one your working on...and probably SchH1 since it's the first time your working and trialing your dog in all 3 phases...

~Bob~

                         I guess it boils down to trust....being an inexperienced handler it is very hard for me to decide what is best for my boy. I have two successful trainers in two different sport venues with two different styles of training....There is a large measure of trust needed to work with a trainer IMO.........Ruger1

 Ruger,

Sort of off track of the other replies but you also need to remember than when a dog is all excited and his blood is up while working Phase C of Schutzhund, he's not really going to respond to the 'cookie' just because he's really going to be into the game with the helper.  That's when being able to properly apply a correction is going to be important.

I would say that in phase C, the "cookie" is the helper and the bite. And in the case of the "out", the cookie is the fight resumed. Works for me and my dog.
The thing to be very careful about is that most "cookie" trainers (at least in my experience) fall under what i would term lure training, which is a dangerous route to go. Tug under the arm, ball in sight, cookie in the hand, all those (if used at all) train the dog that the cue is the motivational tool used. What happens when the cookie is no longer in sight? You have to weed your dog off of the signals and realize in that process, he is not blowing you off, just working it through, and resist the urge to correct.
I would be careful about trying to incorporate both styles of training. Luring, then correcting, in my experience is more unfair to the dog than straight compulsion with a reward at the end.
Shade

Whatever your style of training...Motivational or Compulsion...If your not an experienced handler then the best thing to do is to find someone that you TRUST and let them help you along...Eventually you will learn other methods on your own and will incorporate what you like and store the rest away for a rainy day...
It's really good to not only go to other clubs to visit and watch their style of training...but to also attend seminars that will add a new dimension to your knowledge base...and will broaden your ideas on how to train or what methods to use...
To learn how to use different methods of training you must not only learn them...but also use them and experiment with them to see how they feel and if they're right for you and/or your dog...
When training your first dog in any sport...it's sorta an experiment in progress...
The best advice you can receive is to:
*Watch others training...always pay attention to the other handlers on the field...You will always learn something...Even if it's what NOT to do...You've still learned something...
*Ask questions of everyone...It's the only way you can learn...And if someone doesn't like you asking them something...Don't worry about it and don't let it deter you from your quest for knowledge...It all comes down to how much you want to learn and to better your bond with your dog...
*And lastly and maybe the most important thing...Is to find a handler/trainer that you like and have confidence in and that will help you learn the sport you've chosen...whether it's Schutzhund...AKC Obedience...or whatever....When you have found a person that will teach you what you want to know...then STICK to their style of training until you've reached your goal...and as you go on and learn more...you will be able to choose what style you would like to use...

To many people jump from one trainer to another in quest of knowledge...This is fine once you've learned the basics of what you want to know...But there are many methods of training a dog...and most of them will get you to where you want to go...The difference usually is in the attitude of the dog when and during the training...and when your finished...

It's also true that no matter if you use Motivational Techniques or Compulsion eventually you will use some form of Correction on your dog to Fine Tune them and to make them reliable...It's all in how you arrive at the final product...

Schutzhund is a very hard sport to get into and to learn...Instead of 1 phase of training...such as Obedience or just Protection....or just Tracking...It's all 3 phases and you must learn different things for each one...

It used to be that most people training in Schutzhund used just Compulsion Methods of training...and just like anything else it has evolved and now most people use a combination of Motivational Methods and Compulsion...

~Bob~

           

                    Thanks for all the responses.....My male does not like strangers which has made training more difficult. ...AKC trainer supports taking it slow and positive and interacts physically very little with Prince. .......The Schutzhund trainer suggested  muzzling Prince to show him that interaction is OK .If Prince would show aggression  they are most likely going to discipline him in some way......I have also been working with a Behavior trainer who wanted to accompany me to the Schutzhund obedience class to observe Prince's behavior, however, the Shutzhund trainer was not comfortable with the behavior trainer attending with me....This is a mess!!!......

                                                                                                           Ruger1