Calm bites on the sleeve? - Page 1

 When you look at a SCH-trial some dogs have a calm bite on the sleeve, they mostly just hold hard without so much shaking, they look very correct but maybe a bit boring to watch compared to the dog that shakes a little and seems more into the fight. But how much of this is training versus genetics? Is the calm bite more to do with training and not so much with the fact the dogs do this by nature? I also noticed that some dogs that shakes a bit and aren´t acting like robots also may not have a 100% fulll bite, more like 3/4 and they can chew a bit before outing, but again, is this something that makes it a lesser dog? I guess by the rules it does because you lost point if the grip isn´t 100% full, or?

I believe it grew out of the fact that the GSD is first, and foremost a herding breed.
Frantic thrashing while gripping an ewe would not be what the livestock owner wanted, for obvious reasons.

Remember, that the sport was developed as a breed test.  It was a means to an end, not the end itself. 

Chewing on the bite *can* indicate weak temperment [could also indicate shitty training, or too much playing with an Orbee ball.]

I never looked at the bite in that reguard! True a thrashing bite would be disasterous for the ewe! Looking at the sleeve as if it was a ewe shines a new light on how important a sure firm bite is!  and in practice the thrashing would kill the sheep!Sometimes it is that little bit of light that ties it all together' like that simple release word or correct response from the handler!Thanks mudwick!

The extreme breeding of ridiculously high energy, non-"boring" dogs is what's putting all these cracked-out nerve bags into the gene pool, imo.

Why would I want my dog to thrash? What do you think is going through the dog's mind as he is thrashing, and consider what is going through the calm dog's mind as well. What is he thinking about? Where is he looking? I'm not just talking sport here. A little excitement, thrashing he sleeve after winning it is fine in a green dog. In a trained adult? I don't prefer it.

As far as the tendency to thrash and fullness of grip, the answer to your question is both. Some dogs have a full mouth grip from day one and some dogs have to be taught to use their whole mouth.  Some dogs must be taught not to whip around and some just never do.

Jyota my 10 month old is learning to grip more calmly. Her nature is to grip very deeply and to thrash, jerk and basically act like an insane dog when biting on anything. With the knowledge, help and support of my helper her grip has improved ten fold. She is settling into a very good biting dog that now understands what she is supposed to do and is so very excited and happy to do it! Hopefully she will be just like her mama, and papa when she grows up!

IMO Grip is genetic, and the grip can be improved with proper training. It can also be destroyed with improper training.

Well this is a lot to answer. Some of your questions can be answered by searching the site. Grips are genetic. The can be improved also. People in Schutzhund want a full grip. It is not totally necessary in other sports and PP. Calmness to many is that the dog has good nerve and is not nervous on the sleeve under pressure from the helper itself or stick, etc. As to the thrashing, re-gripping, etc, I'd have to look at the dog itself and how it is being worked. To me it could be several things. It could be a weak dog, it could be a dog with high fight, defense or even high prey. What does a dog do after it catches a rabbit?

A terrier kills small prey like a rat by snatching it up, thrashed it from side to side snapping it's neck, then dropped it and walked away.  So it must be a terrier thing to thrash to kill, called a death shake.  If Pit Bulls were bred to grip game, then why do many of them shake when you play tug, I wonder.  I imagine that would tear up the boar and be ineffective.  Or, because a boar is much bigger than small prey, the animal knows a different approach is needed.  Why bother shaking a deer, would be more effective to bite the neck or go for the underbelly and disembowl them.

The calm bite is ideal, also best for a protection dog.  In real life, would you really want a police dog or PP dog to bite someone and then start shaking them, it would tear them up, I think that would be a bit cruel.  Shaking goes along with PULLING, and that is not desirable either.

I agree with Sitas, that it's highly genetic, but it's also the way biting is taught, and if the shaking is encouraged it will stay, like if you let them win every time they shake that would make it pretty hard to un-teach.

 I´m not talking but a dog that looks nervous or frantic on the bite, rather a dog with strong confident bark, good attacks but it´s just the grip in some phases that aren´t  just as full as some other dogs. Shaking on the bite is common in ringsport or other sports so I hardly think the shaking in itself means it´s a "nervy" less confident dog.

But what is desireable? Can the shake be tempered in conjunction with training yet not loose it when it is desirable! Herding the sheep without the shake yet keep the shake when hunting  rabbitt!  Or can we have our cake and eat it too? Just wondering from a novice??

Johan77,
A full, hard calm grip is definitely genetic.  Looking at the grip is a way to look directly into the dog's mind and see what it is thinking.  There are many reasons that a dog may not bite 100% full, one is genetic, another is training and another is temperament.  If the dog is on the defensive side he may believe he is in a "real" fight with the helper and you can see the less full grip and some shaking.  Many times these dogs bite harder, just not as full.  A strong dog with a clear head and a confident demeanor will not view the helper as a serious threat.  You really have to see the dog to analyze what it is doing.  Some dogs will thrash because they believe they are in a fight and want to fight.  Other dogs thrash out of insecurity and a way to avoid direct contact with the helper. 

For SchH the dog is evaluated by the grip, full grips get good high points.  However, not every full grip is a hard crushing grip.  I'll take hard over full any day.  For Police K9's we look at how hard the grip is and how intense the dog is.  Full grips are a bonus.  We don't grade our dogs on full bites, we grade on hard bites. 

FWIW,

Jim