Breeding Untitled Female....???? - Page 1

    Can someone explain what are some reasons breeders breed untitled females? I am not talking about the BYB. Thanks..............                                                                                             Ruger1

One thought:   Titling dogs is A LOT of work. It's dedication to a level few people are willing to make to their "hobby" of breeding dogs. If you can sell pups without doing it, well, then only your pride as a breeder would keep you from doing it.  

Second thought: if someone had the regular practice of titling their bitches, and then bred one that was not, I might assume that they (if they were a long-timer) knew enough about their breed nad their line to see something in the bitch that worked for them, and would breed her before they got her titled.  

Just as not all good producing show bitches are show Ch, themselves, not all good SchH producers are titled.   However, to my way of thinking, there are VERY FEW breeders out there who are HONEST ENOUGH WITH THEMSELVES to do this. Let's face it, most people make a lot of excuses about their breeding programs. If they don't pass OFA its because OFA isn't a good test, if they can't title, its because their dog "takes bitework too seriously" to do schutzhund (eye roll). 

Hope that gives you somethng to think about on this subject. 

Sometimes trials are few and far between in some parts of the country, sometimes the breeder wants to test the bitch one time before going through the time and expense...I've spent thousands and countless hours titling a dog only to have difficulty breeding her, so I get it. At this time I do not want to breed an untitled bitch myself, but there are some breeders I respect who have done so occasionally, but not as the norm in their breeding program.

What if you got just an exceptional bitch, great bitework, excellent hips and elbows, super conformation, but bought from someone who really messed up her retrieving, will take you a couple months to fix, and there's a great stud that's only in your country for a limited time?

What if you have another really great bitch, suffers a dental injury, puts her back in her bitework?

You suddenly have an unexpected streak of ridiculously hot, dry weather at a fall trial and your dog comes off their track, and oops! no more trials till spring. The male you really wanted to use is being sold very far away shortly. Now what?

What if a bitch has a FR title, or a PSA title, or a FEMA cert? Are they "untitled"?

There are lots of unexpected things that can cause a wonderful, breedworthy dog to go temporarily astray in their titling. You have to assess the situation- is the breeder full of excuses as to why they have a kennelful of of untitled brood bitches, or do they have an excellent track record of only doing FCI breedings with the very rare breeding of an untitled dog?

I would not presume to judge an otherwise excellent, knowledgeable breeder for doing this on occasion.

NoCurs.....Thanks for the reply on my post. You make some good points.   Ruger1

KCzaja ....You make very good points as well,,thanks for the post.                                                                                                         
           "I would not presume to judge an otherwise excellent, knowledgeable breeder for doing this on occasion."  I like this..... Thanks

                                   Ruger1

Ruger1 wrote:
Can someone explain what are some reasons breeders breed untitled females? I am not talking about the BYB.

Well, for one thing, because they CAN, and because somebody must be buying those pups--if there wasn't a market for them, nobody would bother doing it.

And then there's this to consider:  Exactly what titles make a bitch worthy of breeding? That depends on, once again...what the buyers consider to be sufficient.  And we all know that there are bogus SchH and HGH titles, and there's probably bogus Ringsport titles and just about every other title that's available for a dog...so there's the issue of whether or not a title really signifies anything.  Another point to consider: is a SchH titled bitch any better than a bitch that's not titled, but is a working law enforcement dog? And if it's OK to substitute working experience as a law enforcement dog for titling, does it matter if the dog's work was limited to single-purpose (only used for tracking, or only used for narcotics, or only used for apprehension/bitework)?

And then there's the factor that just because a dog is titled doesn't necessarily make it an animal that has something to offer the breed...the truth is that there are far more dogs being bred than is necessary to keep the breed going, and one could actually argue that there are so many unnecessary breedings done that it actually is detrimental to the breed as a whole.

But in the end, I still think it all comes down to the first point above: because they can, and because there are people who will pay for the puppies from those litters.

And then there's the factor that just because a dog is titled doesn't necessarily make it an animal that has something to offer the breed...the truth is that there are far more dogs being bred than is necessary to keep the breed going, and one could actually argue that there are so many unnecessary breedings done that it actually is detrimental to the breed as a whole.


This is so true. 

And it takes an honest breeder to admit this.  I owned (and dearly loved) a dog I took to SchH III, IPO III, TD, B, WH, CD, U-CDX, a couple herding titles, a weight pull title, multiple AKC high in trials in obedience, a UKC breed champion,  OFA good, etc, etc, and even as a newbie in the breed I knew in my heart that his temperament was not correct for a real American pit bull.  He had one accidental litter which more or less proved me right, and I had the brains to alter all pups and to neuter the male to keep other accidnetal  litters from happening.  He was a fabulous dog, my best friend and soul mate - but that still doesn't mean he had a temperament I wanted to propegate.  I was lucky enough to be around "doggy friends" who kindly helped me seperate "loyalty to a friend" from "understanding what is breeding quality".  They made it easy to see that the right thing was not to make $$ offering him at stud, which I easily could have done.  I really owe those friends a lot.

To all new "breed stewards" coming up in ANY breed, I say title every dog you can get your hands on so  you can learn, learn, learn - but NEVER assume a title automatically = a breedable dog.  That judgement takes deep honesty. 

I agree, there were some very good reasons that were not excuses....Impressive!!

NoCurs, this statement helds a lot of weight with me:

To all new "breed stewards" coming up in ANY breed, I say title every dog you can get your hands on so you can learn, learn, learn - but NEVER assume a title automatically = a breedable dog. That judgement takes deep honesty.

I just explained on a different thread,  that I would like to breed some day. We think a bit alike on this.
Here is what my post read:

Yes, some day I would like to breed...but I didn't want to go the "buying titled dogs" route.
For me, personally, I want to work each dog myself. Learn their strengths and weaknesses firsthand. I want to know each dog through and through, so I have a better idea of what traits I would need to improve on.... Because I am only 3 years into owning the breed, I figured that would also give me a little more time to learn more about the breed before I plan a litter.
Even if all my dogs get titled, they still may not be suitable for breeding for one reason or another.
So I may never be able to breed a litter, and if that is the case, I won't feel like I was ripped off in any way because I bought them with the hopes of titling and competing some day but knowing it may not work out so I also chose to raise them as pets. But if they (one or more) do work out, I think it would be much more gratifying (for me) to breed dogs that I raised and titled myself, and know very well, than just buying titled dogs so I can "be a breeder".
Stacy

Interesting....
Stacy

"At this time I do not want to breed an untitled bitch myself, but there are some breeders I respect who have done so occasionally, but not as the norm in their breeding program."

I would hazard a guess that most have at some point.

* THERE SHOULD NEVER BE A REASON TO BREED ANY UNTILED AND SURVEYED MALE OR FEMALE GSD *

Hip & Elbow scores, BH, AD, SchH-IPO titles, Show Ratings, Breed Survey.
All of the above have to be achieved to satisfy the FCI requirements of breeding.

You either follow these requirements in your breeding program or you don't.
EVERY other reason is just an excuse regardless. There have been many instances when an HONEST breeder has had bad luck along the way and the dog had to be placed in a pet/companion home because they could not satisfy these requirements, well as they say tough luck, or better luck next time!
That's all part of doing it to the FCI standard, once again, any other reason is only an excuse.

If a breeder does not purchase a puppy from a sire and or dam that does not satisfy these requirements but then goes ahead and sells puppies from a sire and or dam that do not satisfy these requirements it means that they are a hypocrite.

At the end of the day the title a dog has may be a "paper title" only, or the male or female may satisfy all the requirements but are just poor producers. These are also the facts of life when breeding.
It's the breeders responsibility to have the knowledge needed in ALL aspects of the breed as a foundation. They need to know the strengths and weaknesses in their bloodlines.
They need to make it their business to take the time to investigate the dog they are considering to use as a partner with their female BEFORE breeding.
They need to know what they need to improve on in their female and what they need to retain in their female, in other words they need to have a rational and well thought out vision as to what they are breeding for. Even when all of these prerequisites are followed success is not an automatic, so what makes ANY breeder ABOVE following these breeding standards?

If you are a serious and conscientious breeder that has done your home work then in my opinion you are a "Reputable Breeder". Anything that falls short of that also IMO is unacceptable and should not be allowed to happen.

Yes its time consuming, yes it's expensive, yes there can be many disappointments along the way that result in loss of time & money and will cause lots of disappointment but if you want to be honest with yourself and the families that you sell puppies to then IMO there is no other way.

The BIG frustration that I have is that there are no controls by the AKC to insure that these prerequisites are adhered to. The general public does not understand the reasoning of what I have said, they just see cute little puppies running around someone’s yard for a lot less money than some of the reputable breeders sell puppies for and blindly purchase them.
Unfortunately not only the breed suffers because of it but the families that purchase an inferior puppy or dog from these breeding’s also suffer.

It gives the breed a bad name and breeders that propagate the breed this way can only be in it for the money, they have no pride or shame in what they do.

* THERE IS NO RATIONALIZING WHY AN UNTITLED AND SURVEYED DOG SHOULD BE BRED, THERE ARE ONLY EXCUSES. *